Date   

Re: How well do the majority of blind people browse?

 

Not that the question isn't a good one, because it is, but I'll ask that those kind enough to answer (regardless of whether they think they're an excellent at web browsing or very iffy at it) offer a bit of insight about what their actual practices are.

I'm sure Gene has certain mental impressions (and I know I do) about what constitutes being a skilled browser versus not.  While I don't want to influence things unduly, nor make anyone feel in any way ashamed, either, I can say that "brute force tabbing" is not an excellent, nor efficient, way of browsing and I have seen it still in wider use than it should be.

That's why specifics about "how you browse" are more useful in gaining insight about "what's happenin' now."  And there's no point in being ashamed of whatever you do.  Sharing what's actually going on out there is the only way one can learn about what is going on, even if the sample is self-selected and the information anecdotal.  That's still way better than nothing.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Re: How well do the majority of blind people browse?

 

Your question might be answered by looking at how computer use is taught. There are so many ways to achieve a given objective.


What I find is that is this: a good computer teacher is hard to find.





On 1/11/2022 1:00 PM, Gene wrote:

I’m curious about whether things have changed in the last twenty years.  About twenty years ago, I created an Internet tutorial because it was my strong impression, based on what I observed and the comments of others that a lot of blind people didn’t browse well, even if they were good computer users in other areas. 
 
I’m curious if people agree with my assessment of  what the situation was then and if they think it has improved significantly now.
 
Gene


Re: How well do the majority of blind people browse?

Armando Vias <armando@...>
 

I’m one of the young members from this group. I am able to browse the Internet a lot now.

On Jan 11, 2022, at 1:01 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:


I’m curious about whether things have changed in the last twenty years.  About twenty years ago, I created an Internet tutorial because it was my strong impression, based on what I observed and the comments of others that a lot of blind people didn’t browse well, even if they were good computer users in other areas. 
 
I’m curious if people agree with my assessment of  what the situation was then and if they think it has improved significantly now.
 
Gene


How well do the majority of blind people browse?

Gene
 

I’m curious about whether things have changed in the last twenty years.  About twenty years ago, I created an Internet tutorial because it was my strong impression, based on what I observed and the comments of others that a lot of blind people didn’t browse well, even if they were good computer users in other areas. 
 
I’m curious if people agree with my assessment of  what the situation was then and if they think it has improved significantly now.
 
Gene


Re: Excess Thunderbird verbosity returns

Howard Traxler
 

It appears that the NVDA 5 did the job.


Howard

On 1/8/2022 2:52 PM, Gene wrote:

Howard and all

I think I found the solution to excess verbosity in Thunderbird.  It appears that if you turn report dynamic content changes off, that stops the unwanted verbosity.  Please let us know if that solves your problem.  The command is NVDA 5, 5 on the main keyboard. 


The command appears not to be well known in terms of what it does.  I don't recall it being mentioned when unwanted verbosity in Thunderbird was discussed in the past.


I found out about the possible solution from an issue I submitted to Github yesterday.  I thought there was no way to stop unwanted speech in ARIA regions.  I remember the lack of such a command being commented on here perhaps six or eight months ago.  But turning off reporting of dynamic content changes seems to stop that speech, though I don't know a site to test that on.  I thought it might stop the Thunderbird speech and it appears to as well. 


Gene

On 1/8/2022 9:21 AM, Howard Traxler wrote:
I have two machines running Thunderbird.  On one of them:  when reading a message, I press delete to dump the message and go to the next; the next message starts to read and is interrupted by announcinng that the previous messages is moved to trash.  .  Don't know why or what to change.

Howard


On 1/8/2022 7:38 AM, Tim M wrote:

I don't have that problem with ThunderBird.

I went into account settings and preferences and unchecked those notivations.

Then I went into the menus and unchecked status for both the folders and open email.

now I only get the sound letting me know there is new email.

Learn your software and what it can do.


On 1/6/2022 11:03 AM, Gene wrote:
If this were just a problem concerning Thunderbird, I would have sent this message to the chat list.  But aside from the Thunderbird problem, I think NVDA should have the ability to stop this sort of verbosity, wherever it comes from. 
 
I would like my observations about Thunderbird behavior with NVDA since the latest version to be confirmed or disconfirmed by others.
 
It should be made abundantly clear to Thunderbird developers that the excess verbosity they are once again imposing is not desirable nor necessary.  And this time, it is being done in a different way.  When the status bar is not shown, the verbosity remains.  When a message opens, if there is time before NVDA starts reading it, the word done is spoken.  yesterday, when I was using a new copy of Thunderbird portable, being a new copy using IMAP and downloading a lot of mail from the GMail server, my use of the program was constantly interrupted with announcements of how many messages were being downloaded.  The verbosity doesn’t seem to be as intrusive or occur as often as before but there is a recurring problem among developers that needs to be dealt with. 
 
NVDA appears to be improperly vulnerable to excess verbosity, improperly imposed by program designers and web site designers.  As far as I know, there is still no stop Aria (spelling) setting.  I have no idea how the status line speech was forced in NVDA nor now what is forcing speech.  I would suggest NVDA developers find out and either make default settings or user definable settings to control such speech.  I’m not saying whether they should be default or user definable.  I am not presuming which should be done.  But there needs to be a way to stop unnecessary and unwanted verbosity imposed by developers.
 
Gene


Re: Excess Thunderbird verbosity returns

Gene
 

I think I know one reason, perhaps an important one, that this command isn’t better known in these contexts.  Here is the user guide description:
Key: NVDA+5
Toggles the announcement of new content in particular objects such as terminals and the history control in chat programs.
 
As you see, it says nothing about ARIA regions nor other forced speech situations where it might apply. 
 
I suspect this is language from the early days of the manual and it should be broadened.  I doubt ARIA and other forced speech where it might apply was nearly as prevalent as now.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2022 2:52 PM
Subject: Re: [chat] Excess Thunderbird verbosity returns
 

Howard and all

I think I found the solution to excess verbosity in Thunderbird.  It appears that if you turn report dynamic content changes off, that stops the unwanted verbosity.  Please let us know if that solves your problem.  The command is NVDA 5, 5 on the main keyboard. 

 

The command appears not to be well known in terms of what it does.  I don't recall it being mentioned when unwanted verbosity in Thunderbird was discussed in the past.

 

I found out about the possible solution from an issue I submitted to Github yesterday.  I thought there was no way to stop unwanted speech in ARIA regions.  I remember the lack of such a command being commented on here perhaps six or eight months ago.  But turning off reporting of dynamic content changes seems to stop that speech, though I don't know a site to test that on.  I thought it might stop the Thunderbird speech and it appears to as well. 

 

Gene

On 1/8/2022 9:21 AM, Howard Traxler wrote:
I have two machines running Thunderbird.  On one of them:  when reading a message, I press delete to dump the message and go to the next; the next message starts to read and is interrupted by announcinng that the previous messages is moved to trash.  .  Don't know why or what to change.

Howard


On 1/8/2022 7:38 AM, Tim M wrote:

I don't have that problem with ThunderBird.

I went into account settings and preferences and unchecked those notivations.

Then I went into the menus and unchecked status for both the folders and open email.

now I only get the sound letting me know there is new email.

Learn your software and what it can do.

 

On 1/6/2022 11:03 AM, Gene wrote:
If this were just a problem concerning Thunderbird, I would have sent this message to the chat list.  But aside from the Thunderbird problem, I think NVDA should have the ability to stop this sort of verbosity, wherever it comes from. 
 
I would like my observations about Thunderbird behavior with NVDA since the latest version to be confirmed or disconfirmed by others.
 
It should be made abundantly clear to Thunderbird developers that the excess verbosity they are once again imposing is not desirable nor necessary.  And this time, it is being done in a different way.  When the status bar is not shown, the verbosity remains.  When a message opens, if there is time before NVDA starts reading it, the word done is spoken.  yesterday, when I was using a new copy of Thunderbird portable, being a new copy using IMAP and downloading a lot of mail from the GMail server, my use of the program was constantly interrupted with announcements of how many messages were being downloaded.  The verbosity doesn’t seem to be as intrusive or occur as often as before but there is a recurring problem among developers that needs to be dealt with. 
 
NVDA appears to be improperly vulnerable to excess verbosity, improperly imposed by program designers and web site designers.  As far as I know, there is still no stop Aria (spelling) setting.  I have no idea how the status line speech was forced in NVDA nor now what is forcing speech.  I would suggest NVDA developers find out and either make default settings or user definable settings to control such speech.  I’m not saying whether they should be default or user definable.  I am not presuming which should be done.  But there needs to be a way to stop unnecessary and unwanted verbosity imposed by developers.
 
Gene


Re: Excess Thunderbird verbosity returns

Gene
 

Howard and all

I think I found the solution to excess verbosity in Thunderbird.  It appears that if you turn report dynamic content changes off, that stops the unwanted verbosity.  Please let us know if that solves your problem.  The command is NVDA 5, 5 on the main keyboard. 


The command appears not to be well known in terms of what it does.  I don't recall it being mentioned when unwanted verbosity in Thunderbird was discussed in the past.


I found out about the possible solution from an issue I submitted to Github yesterday.  I thought there was no way to stop unwanted speech in ARIA regions.  I remember the lack of such a command being commented on here perhaps six or eight months ago.  But turning off reporting of dynamic content changes seems to stop that speech, though I don't know a site to test that on.  I thought it might stop the Thunderbird speech and it appears to as well. 


Gene

On 1/8/2022 9:21 AM, Howard Traxler wrote:

I have two machines running Thunderbird.  On one of them:  when reading a message, I press delete to dump the message and go to the next; the next message starts to read and is interrupted by announcinng that the previous messages is moved to trash.  .  Don't know why or what to change.

Howard


On 1/8/2022 7:38 AM, Tim M wrote:

I don't have that problem with ThunderBird.

I went into account settings and preferences and unchecked those notivations.

Then I went into the menus and unchecked status for both the folders and open email.

now I only get the sound letting me know there is new email.

Learn your software and what it can do.


On 1/6/2022 11:03 AM, Gene wrote:
If this were just a problem concerning Thunderbird, I would have sent this message to the chat list.  But aside from the Thunderbird problem, I think NVDA should have the ability to stop this sort of verbosity, wherever it comes from. 
 
I would like my observations about Thunderbird behavior with NVDA since the latest version to be confirmed or disconfirmed by others.
 
It should be made abundantly clear to Thunderbird developers that the excess verbosity they are once again imposing is not desirable nor necessary.  And this time, it is being done in a different way.  When the status bar is not shown, the verbosity remains.  When a message opens, if there is time before NVDA starts reading it, the word done is spoken.  yesterday, when I was using a new copy of Thunderbird portable, being a new copy using IMAP and downloading a lot of mail from the GMail server, my use of the program was constantly interrupted with announcements of how many messages were being downloaded.  The verbosity doesn’t seem to be as intrusive or occur as often as before but there is a recurring problem among developers that needs to be dealt with. 
 
NVDA appears to be improperly vulnerable to excess verbosity, improperly imposed by program designers and web site designers.  As far as I know, there is still no stop Aria (spelling) setting.  I have no idea how the status line speech was forced in NVDA nor now what is forcing speech.  I would suggest NVDA developers find out and either make default settings or user definable settings to control such speech.  I’m not saying whether they should be default or user definable.  I am not presuming which should be done.  But there needs to be a way to stop unnecessary and unwanted verbosity imposed by developers.
 
Gene


Re: Excess Thunderbird verbosity returns

Gene
 

I had thought that using the full word application was what separated the two, but I was wrong.  I may play with this or that universal application to see what they are like to work with but aside from that, I doubt I will use any.  What makes me curious is that it is my impression that you navigate them differently often than applications, often using object navigation.  If that is incorrect, I imagine I will be corrected.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2022 12:09 PM
Subject: Re: [chat] Excess Thunderbird verbosity returns
 
On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 01:00 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm curious about using desktop apps
-
Gene,

Just to be clear, what you are already using under Windows 7 and earlier are what are called desktop apps in Windows 10.  What's different are the Universal apps, most of which are obtained from the Microsoft Store if they are not ones that already ship with Windows 10.

The term app is short for application and it's just an adjective put in front of it, "desktop," in this case, that defines whether it's a good, old-fashioned installed program versus a new universal app.

I use almost no universal apps myself.  And it's very easy to be a Windows 10 user who virtually only uses desktop apps.  I don't count things like Windows 10 settings, which is technically a universal app, as an actual app (even though they do).  If it involves manipulation of the OS, it's just Settings.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Re: Excess Thunderbird verbosity returns

 

On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 01:00 PM, Gene wrote:
I'm curious about using desktop apps
-
Gene,

Just to be clear, what you are already using under Windows 7 and earlier are what are called desktop apps in Windows 10.  What's different are the Universal apps, most of which are obtained from the Microsoft Store if they are not ones that already ship with Windows 10.

The term app is short for application and it's just an adjective put in front of it, "desktop," in this case, that defines whether it's a good, old-fashioned installed program versus a new universal app.

I use almost no universal apps myself.  And it's very easy to be a Windows 10 user who virtually only uses desktop apps.  I don't count things like Windows 10 settings, which is technically a universal app, as an actual app (even though they do).  If it involves manipulation of the OS, it's just Settings.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Re: Excess Thunderbird verbosity returns

Gene
 

Thanks for the information.  I'm curious about using desktop apps but aside from being curious, I'll probably do what I've been doing for my usual activity.  My impression from two friends who aren't good at learning easily and quickly is as you said.  They use applications, not apps, and if there was anything to learn that was involved, they wouldn't have had the fast and easy transition they did.


Gene

On 1/8/2022 11:51 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Gene,

           My dear friend, Phyllis, who passed away just about a year ago got several machines, over time, from Computers for the Blind and they were perfectly fine for day-to-day use.  It is almost certain that you will get one with a 7th gen or older processor from them, but not 100% certain.  It all depends on who's donated to them and how many machines.  Lots of businesses change out machines every 2 to 3 years, and if they got a big batch from a situation like that it could be a newer processor.

           If you liked Windows 7, the learning curve for Windows 10 is not long and shallow.  You tend to pick up what you need to know relatively quickly as some of the "things I used to do this way" need to be done again, but now "that way."

            As far as screen readers and application programs go, if they're installed/desktop applications rather than Windows Universal apps, you'll notice zero difference.

Brian
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Re: Excess Thunderbird verbosity returns

 

Gene,

           My dear friend, Phyllis, who passed away just about a year ago got several machines, over time, from Computers for the Blind and they were perfectly fine for day-to-day use.  It is almost certain that you will get one with a 7th gen or older processor from them, but not 100% certain.  It all depends on who's donated to them and how many machines.  Lots of businesses change out machines every 2 to 3 years, and if they got a big batch from a situation like that it could be a newer processor.

           If you liked Windows 7, the learning curve for Windows 10 is not long and shallow.  You tend to pick up what you need to know relatively quickly as some of the "things I used to do this way" need to be done again, but now "that way."

            As far as screen readers and application programs go, if they're installed/desktop applications rather than Windows Universal apps, you'll notice zero difference.

Brian
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Re: Excess Thunderbird verbosity returns

Gene
 

I was going to get one from Computers for the Blind.  I'm sure the processor will be older.  Its good to have the information.  I'll probably still get one from there because the price is low enough that even getting another one later shouldn't cost me more cumulatively.  But what I do later will depend in part on how I find this one.


Gene

On 1/8/2022 10:40 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
I will be getting a Windows 10 machine,
-
If you're purchasing new (or just purchasing, period) and are getting a machine with an Intel i-series processor, make sure that you get 8th generation or newer.  All of the 8th generation have a dash number in the 8000-8999 range.  Ninth gen is 9000-9999.

Only 8th generation and newer Intel processors can be updated to Windows 11, and with only 3 years left on Windows 10 until it sunsets I'd be mightily annoyed were I to buy a new machine now that can't be updated to Windows 11 when I want to or need to.  And, eventually, we'll all need to.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


spelling error on google doc

farhan israk
 

I am using windows 10 21h2, nvda 2021.3.1 and google chrome Version 97.0.4692.71 (Official Build) (64-bit). i use google doc. if i read any file after ending the file or creating a new file, the screen reader does not announce the spelling error. how can I fix it?


Re: Excess Thunderbird verbosity returns

 

On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
I will be getting a Windows 10 machine,
-
If you're purchasing new (or just purchasing, period) and are getting a machine with an Intel i-series processor, make sure that you get 8th generation or newer.  All of the 8th generation have a dash number in the 8000-8999 range.  Ninth gen is 9000-9999.

Only 8th generation and newer Intel processors can be updated to Windows 11, and with only 3 years left on Windows 10 until it sunsets I'd be mightily annoyed were I to buy a new machine now that can't be updated to Windows 11 when I want to or need to.  And, eventually, we'll all need to.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Re: Excess Thunderbird verbosity returns

Gene
 

I don't use Thunderbird as my main e-mail program but while I was trying to see if my proposed solution would work, I found the following behavior.  After I delete a message, using just delete, not shift delete, I get a message in a little while saying one message deleted from all mail or almost those exact words.  I might get the same message using shift delete but I haven't checked yet.  This message interrupts reading of an e-mail if I'm reading one.  Reading automatically resumes after the announcement if I'm using read to end. 


I tested this with the status line set not to be displayed and I still hear the announcement.  Unfortunately, I believe you will still hear yours.


It would be useful if someone would test with JAWS who hears messages using NVDA.  I will be getting a Windows 10 machine, I believe in a few weeks but it isn't worth updating my old JAWS, which I almost never use on this machine. 


Gene
On 1/8/2022 9:48 AM, Gene via groups.io wrote:

See if this stops the message.

Open the view menu, alt v.

You should be on tool bars when the menu opens.  If so, press enter.  If not move to tool bars and press enter.

You are in a sub menu.  Down arrow to status bar.  If it says checked after you hear status bar, press enter.  The menus will close and the status bar will no longer be shown.  See if that stops the message.


If you want to have the status bar shown again, follow the same procedure. 


Gene

On 1/8/2022 9:21 AM, Howard Traxler wrote:
I have two machines running Thunderbird.  On one of them:  when reading a message, I press delete to dump the message and go to the next; the next message starts to read and is interrupted by announcinng that the previous messages is moved to trash.  .  Don't know why or what to change.

Howard


On 1/8/2022 7:38 AM, Tim M wrote:

I don't have that problem with ThunderBird.

I went into account settings and preferences and unchecked those notivations.

Then I went into the menus and unchecked status for both the folders and open email.

now I only get the sound letting me know there is new email.

Learn your software and what it can do.


On 1/6/2022 11:03 AM, Gene wrote:
If this were just a problem concerning Thunderbird, I would have sent this message to the chat list.  But aside from the Thunderbird problem, I think NVDA should have the ability to stop this sort of verbosity, wherever it comes from. 
 
I would like my observations about Thunderbird behavior with NVDA since the latest version to be confirmed or disconfirmed by others.
 
It should be made abundantly clear to Thunderbird developers that the excess verbosity they are once again imposing is not desirable nor necessary.  And this time, it is being done in a different way.  When the status bar is not shown, the verbosity remains.  When a message opens, if there is time before NVDA starts reading it, the word done is spoken.  yesterday, when I was using a new copy of Thunderbird portable, being a new copy using IMAP and downloading a lot of mail from the GMail server, my use of the program was constantly interrupted with announcements of how many messages were being downloaded.  The verbosity doesn’t seem to be as intrusive or occur as often as before but there is a recurring problem among developers that needs to be dealt with. 
 
NVDA appears to be improperly vulnerable to excess verbosity, improperly imposed by program designers and web site designers.  As far as I know, there is still no stop Aria (spelling) setting.  I have no idea how the status line speech was forced in NVDA nor now what is forcing speech.  I would suggest NVDA developers find out and either make default settings or user definable settings to control such speech.  I’m not saying whether they should be default or user definable.  I am not presuming which should be done.  But there needs to be a way to stop unnecessary and unwanted verbosity imposed by developers.
 
Gene


Re: Excess Thunderbird verbosity returns

Gene
 

See if this stops the message.

Open the view menu, alt v.

You should be on tool bars when the menu opens.  If so, press enter.  If not move to tool bars and press enter.

You are in a sub menu.  Down arrow to status bar.  If it says checked after you hear status bar, press enter.  The menus will close and the status bar will no longer be shown.  See if that stops the message.


If you want to have the status bar shown again, follow the same procedure. 


Gene

On 1/8/2022 9:21 AM, Howard Traxler wrote:

I have two machines running Thunderbird.  On one of them:  when reading a message, I press delete to dump the message and go to the next; the next message starts to read and is interrupted by announcinng that the previous messages is moved to trash.  .  Don't know why or what to change.

Howard


On 1/8/2022 7:38 AM, Tim M wrote:

I don't have that problem with ThunderBird.

I went into account settings and preferences and unchecked those notivations.

Then I went into the menus and unchecked status for both the folders and open email.

now I only get the sound letting me know there is new email.

Learn your software and what it can do.


On 1/6/2022 11:03 AM, Gene wrote:
If this were just a problem concerning Thunderbird, I would have sent this message to the chat list.  But aside from the Thunderbird problem, I think NVDA should have the ability to stop this sort of verbosity, wherever it comes from. 
 
I would like my observations about Thunderbird behavior with NVDA since the latest version to be confirmed or disconfirmed by others.
 
It should be made abundantly clear to Thunderbird developers that the excess verbosity they are once again imposing is not desirable nor necessary.  And this time, it is being done in a different way.  When the status bar is not shown, the verbosity remains.  When a message opens, if there is time before NVDA starts reading it, the word done is spoken.  yesterday, when I was using a new copy of Thunderbird portable, being a new copy using IMAP and downloading a lot of mail from the GMail server, my use of the program was constantly interrupted with announcements of how many messages were being downloaded.  The verbosity doesn’t seem to be as intrusive or occur as often as before but there is a recurring problem among developers that needs to be dealt with. 
 
NVDA appears to be improperly vulnerable to excess verbosity, improperly imposed by program designers and web site designers.  As far as I know, there is still no stop Aria (spelling) setting.  I have no idea how the status line speech was forced in NVDA nor now what is forcing speech.  I would suggest NVDA developers find out and either make default settings or user definable settings to control such speech.  I’m not saying whether they should be default or user definable.  I am not presuming which should be done.  But there needs to be a way to stop unnecessary and unwanted verbosity imposed by developers.
 
Gene


Re: Excess Thunderbird verbosity returns

Howard Traxler
 

I have two machines running Thunderbird.  On one of them:  when reading a message, I press delete to dump the message and go to the next; the next message starts to read and is interrupted by announcinng that the previous messages is moved to trash.  .  Don't know why or what to change.

Howard


On 1/8/2022 7:38 AM, Tim M wrote:

I don't have that problem with ThunderBird.

I went into account settings and preferences and unchecked those notivations.

Then I went into the menus and unchecked status for both the folders and open email.

now I only get the sound letting me know there is new email.

Learn your software and what it can do.


On 1/6/2022 11:03 AM, Gene wrote:
If this were just a problem concerning Thunderbird, I would have sent this message to the chat list.  But aside from the Thunderbird problem, I think NVDA should have the ability to stop this sort of verbosity, wherever it comes from. 
 
I would like my observations about Thunderbird behavior with NVDA since the latest version to be confirmed or disconfirmed by others.
 
It should be made abundantly clear to Thunderbird developers that the excess verbosity they are once again imposing is not desirable nor necessary.  And this time, it is being done in a different way.  When the status bar is not shown, the verbosity remains.  When a message opens, if there is time before NVDA starts reading it, the word done is spoken.  yesterday, when I was using a new copy of Thunderbird portable, being a new copy using IMAP and downloading a lot of mail from the GMail server, my use of the program was constantly interrupted with announcements of how many messages were being downloaded.  The verbosity doesn’t seem to be as intrusive or occur as often as before but there is a recurring problem among developers that needs to be dealt with. 
 
NVDA appears to be improperly vulnerable to excess verbosity, improperly imposed by program designers and web site designers.  As far as I know, there is still no stop Aria (spelling) setting.  I have no idea how the status line speech was forced in NVDA nor now what is forcing speech.  I would suggest NVDA developers find out and either make default settings or user definable settings to control such speech.  I’m not saying whether they should be default or user definable.  I am not presuming which should be done.  But there needs to be a way to stop unnecessary and unwanted verbosity imposed by developers.
 
Gene


Re: Excess Thunderbird verbosity returns

Gene
 

I doubt you are talking about what I’m talking about.  I have not seen any settings that apply to what I’m describing except the don’t show status bar and that doesn’t stop the behavior.  .
 
When you get to mhy previous message, you will see that the verbosity problems I am discussing might not affect most users much or at all and they might not consider them a problem. 
 
Stop patronizing and lecturing me and, if the mood strikes, others as well. 
You assume that I don’t know the software and that is why I didn’t do these things.  It doesn’t occur to you that you might be describing a different problem or problems.  It might also not occur to you that people who know a piece of software may not consider certain options because they believe they don’t apply. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Tim M
Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2022 7:38 AM
Subject: Re: [chat] Excess Thunderbird verbosity returns
 

I don't have that problem with ThunderBird.

I went into account settings and preferences and unchecked those notivations.

Then I went into the menus and unchecked status for both the folders and open email.

now I only get the sound letting me know there is new email.

Learn your software and what it can do.

 

On 1/6/2022 11:03 AM, Gene wrote:
If this were just a problem concerning Thunderbird, I would have sent this message to the chat list.  But aside from the Thunderbird problem, I think NVDA should have the ability to stop this sort of verbosity, wherever it comes from. 
 
I would like my observations about Thunderbird behavior with NVDA since the latest version to be confirmed or disconfirmed by others.
 
It should be made abundantly clear to Thunderbird developers that the excess verbosity they are once again imposing is not desirable nor necessary.  And this time, it is being done in a different way.  When the status bar is not shown, the verbosity remains.  When a message opens, if there is time before NVDA starts reading it, the word done is spoken.  yesterday, when I was using a new copy of Thunderbird portable, being a new copy using IMAP and downloading a lot of mail from the GMail server, my use of the program was constantly interrupted with announcements of how many messages were being downloaded.  The verbosity doesn’t seem to be as intrusive or occur as often as before but there is a recurring problem among developers that needs to be dealt with. 
 
NVDA appears to be improperly vulnerable to excess verbosity, improperly imposed by program designers and web site designers.  As far as I know, there is still no stop Aria (spelling) setting.  I have no idea how the status line speech was forced in NVDA nor now what is forcing speech.  I would suggest NVDA developers find out and either make default settings or user definable settings to control such speech.  I’m not saying whether they should be default or user definable.  I am not presuming which should be done.  But there needs to be a way to stop unnecessary and unwanted verbosity imposed by developers.
 
Gene


Re: Excess Thunderbird verbosity returns

Tim M
 

I don't have that problem with ThunderBird.

I went into account settings and preferences and unchecked those notivations.

Then I went into the menus and unchecked status for both the folders and open email.

now I only get the sound letting me know there is new email.

Learn your software and what it can do.


On 1/6/2022 11:03 AM, Gene wrote:

If this were just a problem concerning Thunderbird, I would have sent this message to the chat list.  But aside from the Thunderbird problem, I think NVDA should have the ability to stop this sort of verbosity, wherever it comes from. 
 
I would like my observations about Thunderbird behavior with NVDA since the latest version to be confirmed or disconfirmed by others.
 
It should be made abundantly clear to Thunderbird developers that the excess verbosity they are once again imposing is not desirable nor necessary.  And this time, it is being done in a different way.  When the status bar is not shown, the verbosity remains.  When a message opens, if there is time before NVDA starts reading it, the word done is spoken.  yesterday, when I was using a new copy of Thunderbird portable, being a new copy using IMAP and downloading a lot of mail from the GMail server, my use of the program was constantly interrupted with announcements of how many messages were being downloaded.  The verbosity doesn’t seem to be as intrusive or occur as often as before but there is a recurring problem among developers that needs to be dealt with. 
 
NVDA appears to be improperly vulnerable to excess verbosity, improperly imposed by program designers and web site designers.  As far as I know, there is still no stop Aria (spelling) setting.  I have no idea how the status line speech was forced in NVDA nor now what is forcing speech.  I would suggest NVDA developers find out and either make default settings or user definable settings to control such speech.  I’m not saying whether they should be default or user definable.  I am not presuming which should be done.  But there needs to be a way to stop unnecessary and unwanted verbosity imposed by developers.
 
Gene


Re: Excess Thunderbird verbosity returns

 

On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 01:44 PM, Gene wrote:
I was making the comment as a comment, not because I expect developers to follow the chat list.
-
OK.  I can't argue with you about your intent.

The point I'm trying to make is if you actually want to have any hope of the changes you talk about actually occurring, you (any you, not just you, Gene) need to get the basic skills for taking a quick look-see at existing NVDA issues in GitHub and commenting on same if something exists already, or creating a new issue if it doesn't.

You are far from the only person I've seen making "change request" comments such as yours.  What I said above is my standard reply to those, as some (particularly the new to these groups) are under the misapprehension that they are monitored by the folks at NVAccess with regularity and careful scrutiny.  They're not.

You can only get what you ask for when you ask correctly, and not necessarily even then.  But at least the request is "on record" where it needs to be in order to eventually get folded into development priorities, if it ever does.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain

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