Date   

Re: Original reason Windows can be used from the keyboard

 

There are probably a lot of things.
Back in 1995-96 in new zealand most of the blind people I knew used
keynote software and dos.
We missed out the windows 3x era and the first os ever created was 95.
Back in the day though, even I thought that windows was a sighted thing.
I had no issue staying in safe dos.
Single tasks were the norm and unlike the us, compuserve was never
mentioned here not even bbs systems or anything like that, not even
aol.
The net did not exist till round 1995-96 and started with the windows 9x line.
Windows was a shell till then.
Access wize there were various solutions if you went out to get them.
But the keynotes were the standards at least in my half of the country
if not my city.
Keysoft was the primary opperating system.
Yes you could get mastertouch for dos access, maybe a tablet, maybe
even wordperfect and duxbury but you rarely did anything outside your
shell.
Most of what I learned about my os was by trial and error.
You try something, it works, you note it down.
It screws up, you just reformat and try again.
So every few days I would try, and if it crashed so what.
Just reformat and reinstall.
Of course when a reformat or even a system replacement took 1-5 hours
you never really gave it a second thought.
You could get the basics up in like 20 minutes if you had to.
Slowly over 6 months and many, many reformats I managed to assemble a
basic knowledge of dos, how to use some of it, and later on did things
like interactive fictions and gw basic though I never really got
further than gaming and messing round.
Eventually I migrated things like the quarterdeck memmory manager and
norton for dos 7 and started pulling as much out of the system as I
could messing with all the configuration files to fool the system to
think I had more memmory than I had, making the system think I had a
colour display so I could take and use the memmory on the monochrome
video card and stuff like that.
It was fun and most of it harmless.
I mean when you could replace dos or just the boot files without
screwing it all up and if the worst came to worst you could just run
the system without the configuration files in realtime mode, redesign
the files and rerun them.
Eventually just before the system broke in 2005 I had the thing not
running dos as such but dos 6.22, with the norton dos shell on top of
it which was a fork of the 4dos shell with bits of drdos on top of
that.
I never used all the extras on it as such but oh well.
I had drivespace on top of that compressing my 80mb drive so I could
run 100-200mb extra data I had drivers running for extras to and yeah
it was fun.
I technically could do that with linux but I never got another blank
system and its more complex pluss the drive I had once just doesn't
exist, after all, my life was pritty basic, no gym, no committments I
could and often sat and hacked all day long.
I'd really like to sit and hack and crack all day long but between my
excercises, house chores, maybe a book or 2 and a little gaming, and
family stuff time seems to rush by.
Not that I don't have time its just not the time I once thought I'd like.
Of course I learned the hard way that I had it easy with dos.
It was easy to break, easy to fix and if it broke it didn't matter.
Windows is a different beast.
Its easy to break, but you don't know always what is broken.
It can be fixed, but you really don't want to reinstall/reformat
unless you really need to, it just takes to long.
And well things are different.
I've always meant to go back to those old days, and one day maybe I
will get a linux system and do that but its a different ball game of
course.
Gaming has changed a lot to.

On 20/12/2021, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 07:40 PM, Gene wrote:


he is engaging in satire.
-
We'll have to disagree on that.

--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

*Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to
prayer.*

~ Mark Twain






Re: Original reason Windows can be used from the keyboard

 

On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 07:40 PM, Gene wrote:
he is engaging in satire. 
-
We'll have to disagree on that.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Re: Original reason Windows can be used from the keyboard

Gene
 

What is an example of what you call a special accomodation?
 
It would depend on the situation and what was asked, but I take some comfort in knowing that bad attitudes about blindness and low expectations are so entrenched that this or that experience with this or that blind person won’t make any meaningful difference a lot of the time.  But there are situations when you might cause harm that matters. 
 
As for the Mosen discussion of the cliché about the one-eyed man, he is engaging in satire.  In that vein, if there really were a kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man might be thought of as some sort of evil wizard or warlock or to have demonic powers.  He might be thought of as having super powers, but it might well be that my scenario might occur. 
 
Its effective satire if you take it to demonstrate that a lot of what is thought about blind people is a social construct and that it is wrong but attempting to apply his discussion to reality as an argument that blind people have no limitations due to blindness is a misapplication. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
 
 
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2021 5:40 PM
Subject: Re: [chat] Original reason Windows can be used from the keyboard
 
On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 06:05 PM, Gene wrote:
A disability means that you can’t do something, or do it well, that most people can do.
-
Amen!!  The only thing I'd add is "with relative ease" to the end of that.

Society is increasingly intent on pretending that things are what they aren’t
And that includes some disability advocates.  Those with disabilities, by definitions, have limitations that those without those disabilities don't have in a specific realm.  I have often said, and with no shame, that sometimes there is no substitute for sight.  That's not an insult to the blind, either, it's a fact.  There are things (e.g., driving, describing a painting or photograph, being a surgeon) that are (as technology currently exists, and likely will remain for a very long time) impossible for you.  Even things like self-driving cars don't mean that you, the blind individual, are driving.  You're still riding.

But I also have to say that there are far too many in the various communities of individuals with disabilities who seem to believe that they can "play the disability card" whenever it suits them, and in contexts where the only reason for doing so is their personal convenience, and believing that this is not hugely damaging to their respective communities and the overarching community of people with any disability as a whole.  And I see that far too often on these very groups, where certain people want special accommodations when they want those (not reasonable, special), but to be treated "just like everyone else" in all other respects.  You undermine that second goal, which is a great one, every time you ask for a special accommodation for convenience only to yourself.  It may be the only time that random person X ever comes into contact with you and that interaction can and does go into their mental lint about what others who may be very similar to you are capable of doing.

I believe that most people with disabilities are fully capable individuals who should be able to do virtually anything I can do in daily life, with the exception of those things that very directly rely on the sense that's missing or badly impaired or the physical equivalent of same.  And my own experiences have made it clear to me that a great many of those with disabilities, and it is not the majority let me make clear, do not, in fact, want to be treated "just like everybody else" or I wouldn't get the pushback I never get from "everybody else" when expecting and asking for precisely the same things.  You truly cannot have it both ways, and every time you try to have it both ways you undermine the ideal situation of "being treated just like everybody else."
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Re: Original reason Windows can be used from the keyboard

 

On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 06:05 PM, Gene wrote:
A disability means that you can’t do something, or do it well, that most people can do.
-
Amen!!  The only thing I'd add is "with relative ease" to the end of that.

Society is increasingly intent on pretending that things are what they aren’t
And that includes some disability advocates.  Those with disabilities, by definitions, have limitations that those without those disabilities don't have in a specific realm.  I have often said, and with no shame, that sometimes there is no substitute for sight.  That's not an insult to the blind, either, it's a fact.  There are things (e.g., driving, describing a painting or photograph, being a surgeon) that are (as technology currently exists, and likely will remain for a very long time) impossible for you.  Even things like self-driving cars don't mean that you, the blind individual, are driving.  You're still riding.

But I also have to say that there are far too many in the various communities of individuals with disabilities who seem to believe that they can "play the disability card" whenever it suits them, and in contexts where the only reason for doing so is their personal convenience, and believing that this is not hugely damaging to their respective communities and the overarching community of people with any disability as a whole.  And I see that far too often on these very groups, where certain people want special accommodations when they want those (not reasonable, special), but to be treated "just like everyone else" in all other respects.  You undermine that second goal, which is a great one, every time you ask for a special accommodation for convenience only to yourself.  It may be the only time that random person X ever comes into contact with you and that interaction can and does go into their mental lint about what others who may be very similar to you are capable of doing.

I believe that most people with disabilities are fully capable individuals who should be able to do virtually anything I can do in daily life, with the exception of those things that very directly rely on the sense that's missing or badly impaired or the physical equivalent of same.  And my own experiences have made it clear to me that a great many of those with disabilities, and it is not the majority let me make clear, do not, in fact, want to be treated "just like everybody else" or I wouldn't get the pushback I never get from "everybody else" when expecting and asking for precisely the same things.  You truly cannot have it both ways, and every time you try to have it both ways you undermine the ideal situation of "being treated just like everybody else."
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Re: Original reason Windows can be used from the keyboard

 

David,

            As much as I respect you, and Jonathan Mosen, I just can't buy in to that definition.  I also think his dudgeon regarding the phrase, "In the kingdom of the blind the one-eyed man is king!," is very much misplaced (as opposed to his justifiable anger about the context in which it was used to enforce discrimination).  I mean, look at the phrase and think about it.  If all the world were blind ("the kingdom of the blind") and there were someone with one eye that had vision (that one-eyed man) that person would possess what amounted to a superpower.  He would be king, in all probability.

             He also launches into a ton of blue-sky "what-if"-ism, and that's what's called fantasy.  It's not that it might not come true, but disability can definitely be *partially* defined by a mismatch between the individual and the environment, and when "the ideal environment" does not exist and is unlikely to come into existence in any reasonably foreseeable period of time, it's just blowing smoke.

              I cannot disagree with the assertion he makes, though, "It is society and its majority that disables us with attitudes and decisions, not the disability itself."  Societies, all of them, generally don't have many people with disabilities (as a part of the population as a whole) and most of the attitudes toward those who have disabilities have their roots in times long ago where the mismatch between the individual and what was possible in that time and place was a gulf much deeper and wider than it is now.  The old saying goes, "Old habits die hard," and you can substitute "attitudes" for "habits" and it still applies.

              This is one of the reasons, when I was a cognitive rehabilitation therapist working with those who'd suffered traumatic brain injuries, I emphasized to them again and again that what the general public thought about them, and what they could do, was likely to be a great underestimate of what they could do in actuality.  This meant that the were going to bear a burden of self-advocacy and constantly having to educate the great unwashed as a part of their day to day life if they wanted one that most closely approximated the one they knew before.  It doesn't matter whether that's fair or not, it's a fact.  You're fighting against long ingrained attitudes that are often completely wrong.  And because most of the world does not know someone "like you" there is no way they can know that those attitudes are wrong and not based on reality.  It's true for blindness as well, of course.

                Unfortunately, due to the tyrrany of numbers, those who are parts of any relatively small minority are going to be having to carry that weight of constant self-advocacy and educating the clueless as long as they live.  Even if societal attitudes change somewhat during one's lifetime, the ingrained garbage is just not going to disappear entirely.

                 I've often said, and not just in the context under discussion here, "The received wisdom is often anything but."
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Re: Original reason Windows can be used from the keyboard

Gene
 

I’ll look at the article but as stated, I think the definition is meaningless and is trying to make disability something it isn’t.
 
Consider the absurdities that come from that definition.  By this definition, everyone is disabled if they want to fly and can’t.  If I want to live like a fish in the ocean, I’m disabled compared to a fish.  We have ways of flying, adapting to our flight disability and we have ways of staying underwater for awhile, adapting to our ocean disability.  But as you can see, the definition you are proposing is meaningless. 
 
A disability means that you can’t do something, or do it well, that most people can do.  I can’t see.  The point is to learn how to do what can be done in other ways that don’t depend on sight.  I don’t claim not to have limitations compared with sighted people.  I do claim that I can do a great deal because some of what is done in general doesn’t depend on sight and because there are all sorts of ways to do things that can be done in ways that don’t require sight, regardless of the general opinion.  I believe that a blind person who has confidence and proper training can live a fulfilling and happy life.  But that doesn’t mean that a blind person doesn’t have limitations. 
 
Society is increasingly intent on pretending that things are what they aren’t. 
 
Gene
-----Original Message[-----
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2021 4:42 PM
Subject: Re: [chat] Original reason Windows can be used from the keyboard
 

Brian,

A few things. First, I would not claim to be an expert or even a competent amateur historian when it comes to the development of print access for the blind but the reading I’ve done indicates that people were working on perfecting this field as far back as the early 1900s and it was specifically to allow a blind reader to access print. Clearly, there were other motives and audiences being considered as well but I am almost sure that it was visual impairment that inspired the first work in this field.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_optical_character_recognition

 

Regarding the definition of disability a few years ago I was introduced to someone who defined disability as a mismatch between an individual and his or her environment. I have to tell you that I initially rejected that definition and honestly thought that it was out of touch with reality. Reading a portion of this article by Jonathan Mosen caused me to reevaluate my views and it was literally like the scales had fallen from my eyes. Understanding the concept of disability in the manner described in this piece was like a major awakening for me and I am now completely at peace with that definition.

Here's the blog post: perform a word search for “kingdom” and you’ll find the relevant section where he discusses the expression “in the kingdom of the blind the one-eyed man is king”

 

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

JAWS Certified, 2019

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

 

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

 

 

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2021 5:23 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] Original reason Windows can be used from the keyboard

 

On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 04:58 PM, David Goldfield wrote:

True and the opposite has been equally so. Many tools and services which started out as accessibility aids for people with disabilities eventually found favor with the non-disabled community. I’m thinking of recorded books, OCR technology and curb cuts and I’m sure there are many more where that came from.

-
One of the women I once worked with at what was then called the Woodrow Wilson Rehabilitation Center, now known as the Wilson Workforce and Rehabilitation Center, was wheelchair bound and one of the primary movers and shakers in getting curb cuts put in here in Staunton.  Birdie Minor was a force to be reckoned with in the very best sense of that phrase.  She had a career as a wheelchair bound speech and language pathologist (as was one of her/my coworkers at the time) long before such would have been considered even kinda sorta common.

One of the case managers was blind and worked there for decades, and not in the department dedicated to "special populations" but as a general purpose case manager.

One thing I've learned over the course of my career is that what we most commonly call disability, and it is because it makes things more difficult than they might otherwise be, does not, in any way, equate to inability.  I think it's also why some people find me unsympathetic when it comes to those with disabilities.  That's because of my history with people with them, and they really didn't need, nor want, anything beyond reasonable accommodations focused very strictly on the sense disability or physical disability they happened to have.  As a result, I'm every bit as direct with, and have the same expectations of, someone with a disability that I do for someone without one in every way except what's impossible because of the disability.  If I expected exactly the same in the realm of the individual's disability I could rightly be called a sadist.

A dear friend of mine, Phyllis Campbell, who I lost earlier this year and had met when I worked for a year at the Virginia School for the Deaf and the Blind, was another person who was a force to be reckoned with and for whom blindness (from birth) was nothing more than "an interesting feature" to those of us who knew her.  She could do anything any sighted person I have ever known could do provided it was not directly dependent on sight.  She was also an author, and one aspect of that which amazed me was how carefully she listened to what I'll call "vision descriptions" and could write same, setting scenes, that she could never (and did never) experience directly.  When we used to go out on convertible rides through the surrounding area I would end up narrating what I saw, if it wasn't just the "run of the mill field," because I knew that she wanted to know it, and very clearly enjoyed being given a picture of sorts even if she couldn't literally have a mental image in the conventional sense of that phrase.  For all I know, some here may even have read some of her books.

Now, after all that, I don't think that OCR was really initially thought of as a disability tool, though heaven knows it is.  There is just such a vast quantity of written material out there that predates the computer age, and digitizing the same in such a way that it could be searched on content was desperately wanted, and, thus, OCR was born.  It's taken on a life of its own in many respects.  And what can be done with it now is jaw-dropping compared to in the early days, as it can very accurately scan some very crappy originals quite accurately.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Re: Scam Calls Claiming to be from Amazon

JM Casey
 

Yeah. One has to remember that for the most part (there might be rare exceptions), the people on the calling end are, for purposes of the operation, nothing more than drones. They have absolutely nothing to gain by taking you off a list or performing any action at all besides trying to carry forward the scam. They are likely in a call centre and using an auto-dialer that is making dozens of calls every minute and onlya ctually being put through to the call itself if the call is answered.

Not sure about voicemails – in the recent past, these autodialers weren’t really sophisticated enough to tell whether something was a voicemail, some other type of recording, or a live pickup. They can probably tell now when it’s something like a voicemail, because what goes on behind the scenes of voicemail now is that your calls are forwarded to another number, and that’s pretty easy to discern. However, that forwarding need not necessarily signify a voicemail or eventual live person at all, so I would *guess* at least that keeping your voicemail answerrring these calls might be keeping their volume down.

 

 

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: December 19, 2021 03:27 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] Scam Calls Claiming to be from Amazon

 

On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 03:23 PM, Don H wrote:

when you do that you are just indicating that your phone number is good.

-
Which is absolutely true.

It's the rare scammer that will actually even honor your demand not to be called again.  But you have confirmed for them that the line is active and a real human does, at least occasionally, answer.  Unfortunately, the same information can be gleaned by scammers even if voicemail picks up.

And they all sell number lists to each other.

I try to report the scammers to the FTC as much as I can, but since I virtually never answer anymore for any number that is not in my contacts or that I don't recognize on sight I'm not doing that so much these days.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Re: Original reason Windows can be used from the keyboard

David Goldfield
 

Brian,

A few things. First, I would not claim to be an expert or even a competent amateur historian when it comes to the development of print access for the blind but the reading I’ve done indicates that people were working on perfecting this field as far back as the early 1900s and it was specifically to allow a blind reader to access print. Clearly, there were other motives and audiences being considered as well but I am almost sure that it was visual impairment that inspired the first work in this field.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_optical_character_recognition

 

Regarding the definition of disability a few years ago I was introduced to someone who defined disability as a mismatch between an individual and his or her environment. I have to tell you that I initially rejected that definition and honestly thought that it was out of touch with reality. Reading a portion of this article by Jonathan Mosen caused me to reevaluate my views and it was literally like the scales had fallen from my eyes. Understanding the concept of disability in the manner described in this piece was like a major awakening for me and I am now completely at peace with that definition.

Here's the blog post: perform a word search for “kingdom” and you’ll find the relevant section where he discusses the expression “in the kingdom of the blind the one-eyed man is king”

 

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

JAWS Certified, 2019

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

 

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

 

 

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2021 5:23 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] Original reason Windows can be used from the keyboard

 

On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 04:58 PM, David Goldfield wrote:

True and the opposite has been equally so. Many tools and services which started out as accessibility aids for people with disabilities eventually found favor with the non-disabled community. I’m thinking of recorded books, OCR technology and curb cuts and I’m sure there are many more where that came from.

-
One of the women I once worked with at what was then called the Woodrow Wilson Rehabilitation Center, now known as the Wilson Workforce and Rehabilitation Center, was wheelchair bound and one of the primary movers and shakers in getting curb cuts put in here in Staunton.  Birdie Minor was a force to be reckoned with in the very best sense of that phrase.  She had a career as a wheelchair bound speech and language pathologist (as was one of her/my coworkers at the time) long before such would have been considered even kinda sorta common.

One of the case managers was blind and worked there for decades, and not in the department dedicated to "special populations" but as a general purpose case manager.

One thing I've learned over the course of my career is that what we most commonly call disability, and it is because it makes things more difficult than they might otherwise be, does not, in any way, equate to inability.  I think it's also why some people find me unsympathetic when it comes to those with disabilities.  That's because of my history with people with them, and they really didn't need, nor want, anything beyond reasonable accommodations focused very strictly on the sense disability or physical disability they happened to have.  As a result, I'm every bit as direct with, and have the same expectations of, someone with a disability that I do for someone without one in every way except what's impossible because of the disability.  If I expected exactly the same in the realm of the individual's disability I could rightly be called a sadist.

A dear friend of mine, Phyllis Campbell, who I lost earlier this year and had met when I worked for a year at the Virginia School for the Deaf and the Blind, was another person who was a force to be reckoned with and for whom blindness (from birth) was nothing more than "an interesting feature" to those of us who knew her.  She could do anything any sighted person I have ever known could do provided it was not directly dependent on sight.  She was also an author, and one aspect of that which amazed me was how carefully she listened to what I'll call "vision descriptions" and could write same, setting scenes, that she could never (and did never) experience directly.  When we used to go out on convertible rides through the surrounding area I would end up narrating what I saw, if it wasn't just the "run of the mill field," because I knew that she wanted to know it, and very clearly enjoyed being given a picture of sorts even if she couldn't literally have a mental image in the conventional sense of that phrase.  For all I know, some here may even have read some of her books.

Now, after all that, I don't think that OCR was really initially thought of as a disability tool, though heaven knows it is.  There is just such a vast quantity of written material out there that predates the computer age, and digitizing the same in such a way that it could be searched on content was desperately wanted, and, thus, OCR was born.  It's taken on a life of its own in many respects.  And what can be done with it now is jaw-dropping compared to in the early days, as it can very accurately scan some very crappy originals quite accurately.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Re: Original reason Windows can be used from the keyboard

 

On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 05:21 PM, David Mellor wrote:
AT what point did the use of basic (not exactly short cut keys) like tab/space/enter enter the picture?
-
I honestly can't answer that other than to say they have been a part of Windows since day one.

In the DOS days I did almost everything via the command line, and other than entering the Enter or Return (that key was, and still is, labeled both ways) to execute something.  I do not recall ever having used tab for navigation or space for "activate/click" as is often done under Windows.

We need another very early adopter of accessibility technology to speak here.  Were my friend Phyllis still with us, I'd ask her, because she started playing with computers and all accessibility software, and devices, almost since the first day one appeared.  She used to hate it on the rare, very rare, occasions she'd need to call on me when something was either actually inaccessible (which was more usual) or required such gyrations to figure out how to access it without any assistance that it made no sense to do so when time was of the essence.  She was entirely sensible about how much time to dedicate to a thorny accessibility issue that she knew full well might take days of frustration to figure out entirely independently rather than calling upon any one of many sighted friends who might, in a flash, be able to alert her to something that the screen reader "couldn't see" at the same time it was dealing with something else.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Re: Original reason Windows can be used from the keyboard

 

On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 04:58 PM, David Goldfield wrote:
True and the opposite has been equally so. Many tools and services which started out as accessibility aids for people with disabilities eventually found favor with the non-disabled community. I’m thinking of recorded books, OCR technology and curb cuts and I’m sure there are many more where that came from.
-
One of the women I once worked with at what was then called the Woodrow Wilson Rehabilitation Center, now known as the Wilson Workforce and Rehabilitation Center, was wheelchair bound and one of the primary movers and shakers in getting curb cuts put in here in Staunton.  Birdie Minor was a force to be reckoned with in the very best sense of that phrase.  She had a career as a wheelchair bound speech and language pathologist (as was one of her/my coworkers at the time) long before such would have been considered even kinda sorta common.

One of the case managers was blind and worked there for decades, and not in the department dedicated to "special populations" but as a general purpose case manager.

One thing I've learned over the course of my career is that what we most commonly call disability, and it is because it makes things more difficult than they might otherwise be, does not, in any way, equate to inability.  I think it's also why some people find me unsympathetic when it comes to those with disabilities.  That's because of my history with people with them, and they really didn't need, nor want, anything beyond reasonable accommodations focused very strictly on the sense disability or physical disability they happened to have.  As a result, I'm every bit as direct with, and have the same expectations of, someone with a disability that I do for someone without one in every way except what's impossible because of the disability.  If I expected exactly the same in the realm of the individual's disability I could rightly be called a sadist.

A dear friend of mine, Phyllis Campbell, who I lost earlier this year and had met when I worked for a year at the Virginia School for the Deaf and the Blind, was another person who was a force to be reckoned with and for whom blindness (from birth) was nothing more than "an interesting feature" to those of us who knew her.  She could do anything any sighted person I have ever known could do provided it was not directly dependent on sight.  She was also an author, and one aspect of that which amazed me was how carefully she listened to what I'll call "vision descriptions" and could write same, setting scenes, that she could never (and did never) experience directly.  When we used to go out on convertible rides through the surrounding area I would end up narrating what I saw, if it wasn't just the "run of the mill field," because I knew that she wanted to know it, and very clearly enjoyed being given a picture of sorts even if she couldn't literally have a mental image in the conventional sense of that phrase.  For all I know, some here may even have read some of her books.

Now, after all that, I don't think that OCR was really initially thought of as a disability tool, though heaven knows it is.  There is just such a vast quantity of written material out there that predates the computer age, and digitizing the same in such a way that it could be searched on content was desperately wanted, and, thus, OCR was born.  It's taken on a life of its own in many respects.  And what can be done with it now is jaw-dropping compared to in the early days, as it can very accurately scan some very crappy originals quite accurately.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Re: Original reason Windows can be used from the keyboard

David Mellor
 

Hi Brian + list,
AT what point did the use of basic (not exactly short cut keys) like tab/space/enter enter the picture?
Did early pre-mouse interfaces start developing more structure like modern GUIs such that tab was needed to navigate between interface elements?
I've often wondered how the Windows GUI was so well suited to accessibility.
Very many thanks,
David
 


From: chat@nvda.groups.io [mailto:chat@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 19 December 2021 21:50
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] Original reason Windows can be used from the keyboard

On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 03:37 PM, Gene wrote:
It’s a bit disconcerting to realize how the level of access we have might not have occurred. 
-
I can imagine.

If GUIs had been what "started the PC" world they almost certainly would not have occurred.  I actually find it kind of perversely amusing that the primary tool of modern accessibility dates from a period where even the concept of accessibility never even entered anyone's mind.  Times change, and there are definitely happy accidents, of which this is the perfect example.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain

 


Re: Original reason Windows can be used from the keyboard

David Goldfield
 

Brian wrote:

  • … the primary tool of modern accessibility dates from a period where even the concept of accessibility never even entered anyone's mind. 

 

True and the opposite has been equally so. Many tools and services which started out as accessibility aids for people with disabilities eventually found favor with the non-disabled community. I’m thinking of recorded books, OCR technology and curb cuts and I’m sure there are many more where that came from. And not only should the sighted thank us for it but we should thank them as well as their broad acceptance of some of these technologies is what brings the cost down for all of us. I remember being heartbroken in the mid 1970s when I found out that the big, clunky Kurzweil reading machine would have cost over $40,000 to purchase and there was no way my family was able to afford such a costly device. Compare that with where we are in 2021 where we have many scanners and OCR titles to choose from, many of those titles being either free of cost or so affordable that we have several choices.

 

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

JAWS Certified, 2019

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

 

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

 

 

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2021 4:50 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] Original reason Windows can be used from the keyboard

 

On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 03:37 PM, Gene wrote:

It’s a bit disconcerting to realize how the level of access we have might not have occurred. 

-
I can imagine.

If GUIs had been what "started the PC" world they almost certainly would not have occurred.  I actually find it kind of perversely amusing that the primary tool of modern accessibility dates from a period where even the concept of accessibility never even entered anyone's mind.  Times change, and there are definitely happy accidents, of which this is the perfect example.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Re: Original reason Windows can be used from the keyboard

 

On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 03:37 PM, Gene wrote:
It’s a bit disconcerting to realize how the level of access we have might not have occurred. 
-
I can imagine.

If GUIs had been what "started the PC" world they almost certainly would not have occurred.  I actually find it kind of perversely amusing that the primary tool of modern accessibility dates from a period where even the concept of accessibility never even entered anyone's mind.  Times change, and there are definitely happy accidents, of which this is the perfect example.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Re: Scam Calls Claiming to be from Amazon

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Gene,

 

My phone has talking caller ID so I can listen for a legitimate call. If it’s from someone I don’t know, I won’t answer it.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Gene
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2021 1:12 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] Scam Calls Claiming to be from Amazon

 

If they are legitimate calls, they will leave a message.  I don’t answer calls no matter where they come from unless I recognize the number or am expecting a call from a specific place.  If I am, and I get a call from the correct area code, I may take a chance.  Even then,not necessarily.

 

Gene

-----Original Message-----

From: Don H

Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2021 2:46 PM

Subject: Re: [chat] Scam Calls Claiming to be from Amazon

 

Trouble is these spammers spoof local phone calls so sometimes I feel I
need to answer them.  Heck I have even got a few of them where it shows
my number in the caller id.

On 12/19/2021 2:29 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
> I don’t even answer the phone if I get a call from someone I don’t
> recognize. If they leave a message on my answering machine, I just
> delete it right away.
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows
>
> *From: *Don H <mailto:lmddh50@...>
> *Sent: *Sunday, December 19, 2021 12:23 PM
> *To: *chat@nvda.groups.io <mailto:chat@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject: *Re: [chat] Scam Calls Claiming to be from Amazon
>
> I think when you do that you are just indicating that your phone number
>
> is good.
>
> On 12/19/2021 2:20 PM, Janet Brandly wrote:
>
>  > Hi,
>
>  >
>
>  > I was getting a lot of these calls as well. When the last one came
> in, I pressed whatever it is to speak with one of their representatives
> and told them not to call me again. So far that seems to have worked.
>
>  >
>
>  > Hope this helps,
>
>  >
>
>  > Janet
>
>  >
>
>  > -----Original Message-----
>
>  > From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Don H
>
>  > Sent: December 19, 2021 10:58 AM
>
>  > To: chat@nvda.groups.io
>
>  > Subject: [chat] scam calls from Amazon
>
>  >
>
>  > Today I have gotten 5 scam calls saying they were from Amazon and
> that I had ordered a I phone for $999.  Each call were from different
> phone numbers.  I simply hang up but this is the first time I have
> gotten the same call 5 times within a hour.  Anyone else seeing a uptick
> in these scam calls from Amazon?  Of course these calls are not from Amazon.
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>



 


Re: Scam Calls Claiming to be from Amazon

Gene
 

If they are legitimate calls, they will leave a message.  I don’t answer calls no matter where they come from unless I recognize the number or am expecting a call from a specific place.  If I am, and I get a call from the correct area code, I may take a chance.  Even then,not necessarily.
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
From: Don H
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2021 2:46 PM
Subject: Re: [chat] Scam Calls Claiming to be from Amazon
 
Trouble is these spammers spoof local phone calls so sometimes I feel I
need to answer them.  Heck I have even got a few of them where it shows
my number in the caller id.

On 12/19/2021 2:29 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
> I don’t even answer the phone if I get a call from someone I don’t
> recognize. If they leave a message on my answering machine, I just
> delete it right away.
>
> Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows
>
> *From: *Don H <mailto:lmddh50@...>
> *Sent: *Sunday, December 19, 2021 12:23 PM
> *To: *chat@nvda.groups.io <mailto:chat@nvda.groups.io>
> *Subject: *Re: [chat] Scam Calls Claiming to be from Amazon
>
> I think when you do that you are just indicating that your phone number
>
> is good.
>
> On 12/19/2021 2:20 PM, Janet Brandly wrote:
>
>  > Hi,
>
>  >
>
>  > I was getting a lot of these calls as well. When the last one came
> in, I pressed whatever it is to speak with one of their representatives
> and told them not to call me again. So far that seems to have worked.
>
>  >
>
>  > Hope this helps,
>
>  >
>
>  > Janet
>
>  >
>
>  > -----Original Message-----
>
>  > From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Don H
>
>  > Sent: December 19, 2021 10:58 AM
>
>  > To: chat@nvda.groups.io
>
>  > Subject: [chat] scam calls from Amazon
>
>  >
>
>  > Today I have gotten 5 scam calls saying they were from Amazon and
> that I had ordered a I phone for $999.  Each call were from different
> phone numbers.  I simply hang up but this is the first time I have
> gotten the same call 5 times within a hour.  Anyone else seeing a uptick
> in these scam calls from Amazon?  Of course these calls are not from Amazon.
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>  >
>
>





Re: Scam Calls Claiming to be from Amazon

Gene
 

Its better never to answer a scam call nor take any actions.  If you do, they know the number is being monitored by a live person.  I have my answering machine screen all calls and I only answer legitimate calls. 
 
It may just be a coincidence that the calls stopped. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2021 2:20 PM
Subject: Re: [chat] Scam Calls Claiming to be from Amazon
 
Hi,

I was getting a lot of these calls as well. When the last one came in, I pressed whatever it is to speak with one of their representatives and told them not to call me again. So far that seems to have worked.

Hope this helps,

Janet

-----Original Message-----
From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Don H
Sent: December 19, 2021 10:58 AM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [chat] scam calls from Amazon

Today I have gotten 5 scam calls saying they were from Amazon and that I had ordered a I phone for $999.  Each call were from different phone numbers.  I simply hang up but this is the first time I have gotten the same call 5 times within a hour.  Anyone else seeing a uptick in these scam calls from Amazon?  Of course these calls are not from Amazon.











Re: Scam Calls Claiming to be from Amazon

Don H
 

Trouble is these spammers spoof local phone calls so sometimes I feel I
need to answer them. Heck I have even got a few of them where it shows
my number in the caller id.

On 12/19/2021 2:29 PM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
I don’t even answer the phone if I get a call from someone I don’t
recognize. If they leave a message on my answering machine, I just
delete it right away.

Sent from Mail <https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/?LinkId=550986> for Windows

*From: *Don H <mailto:lmddh50@...>
*Sent: *Sunday, December 19, 2021 12:23 PM
*To: *chat@nvda.groups.io <mailto:chat@nvda.groups.io>
*Subject: *Re: [chat] Scam Calls Claiming to be from Amazon

I think when you do that you are just indicating that your phone number

is good.

On 12/19/2021 2:20 PM, Janet Brandly wrote:

> Hi,

>

> I was getting a lot of these calls as well. When the last one came
in, I pressed whatever it is to speak with one of their representatives
and told them not to call me again. So far that seems to have worked.

>

> Hope this helps,

>

> Janet

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Don H

> Sent: December 19, 2021 10:58 AM

> To: chat@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: [chat] scam calls from Amazon

>

> Today I have gotten 5 scam calls saying they were from Amazon and
that I had ordered a I phone for $999.  Each call were from different
phone numbers.  I simply hang up but this is the first time I have
gotten the same call 5 times within a hour.  Anyone else seeing a uptick
in these scam calls from Amazon?  Of course these calls are not from Amazon.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>


Re: Original reason Windows can be used from the keyboard

Gene
 

It’s a bit disconcerting to realize how the level of access we have might not have occurred. 
 
Gene

-----Original Message-----
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2021 2:19 PM
Subject: Re: [chat] Original reason Windows can be used from the keyboard
 
On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 03:09 PM, Gene wrote:
Did Microsoft and other developers anticipate that there would be enough people not using a mouse to do this or was there some other reason?
-
No, and yes.

Virtually all the keyboard shortcuts that you, I, and the world are most familiar with are holdovers from the days of DOS.   Prior to Windows and WYSIWYG (What You See Is What You Get) graphical user interfaces there was not even a mouse to do things with.  All control was through the keyboard.  Those of us "of a certain age" who came into computing just as the PC was making its very first appearances with no mouse and a monochrome, text-based screen, remember all too well that word processor documents on screen looked absolutely nothing like what they did when printed, and all the formatting was done via codes which were visible, and all movement was controlled via keyboard as were commands (and that's why modifier keys exist, actually).

There were a lot of "old schoolers" who, when Windows first hit the scene, still used the keyboard for control far, far more frequently than the mouse.  But as that generation has, literally, died out and those who never knew anything but the mouse have come to predominate the user base, the broad common knowledge of keyboard shortcuts has largely died out.

Keyboard shortcuts were not, in any way, conceived of as an accessibility tool at their inception.  They were a necessity for any PC user, and accessibility as a concept was not even a distant twinkle in the eyes of almost anyone at that time.

What you, and every blind person, uses as their primary access method only exists because the major players originally had to carry over the keyboard shortcuts to keep the existing user base happy, and after that as features were added they followed the pattern of always creating keyboard shortcuts for those as they came on the scene.  It could have very easily gone the opposite way, with keyboard shortcuts having been given the heave-ho entirely.  Had that occurred, reverse engineering them back in to software would have been an absolute nightmare.

So you have an accident of history and the emergence of DOS in the early days to thank for the presence of a comprehensive set of keyboard shortcuts being present to this very day.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Re: Scam Calls Claiming to be from Amazon

Rosemarie Chavarria
 

I don’t even answer the phone if I get a call from someone I don’t recognize. If they leave a message on my answering machine, I just delete it right away.

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Don H
Sent: Sunday, December 19, 2021 12:23 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] Scam Calls Claiming to be from Amazon

 

I think when you do that you are just indicating that your phone number

is good.

 

On 12/19/2021 2:20 PM, Janet Brandly wrote:

> Hi,

>

> I was getting a lot of these calls as well. When the last one came in, I pressed whatever it is to speak with one of their representatives and told them not to call me again. So far that seems to have worked.

>

> Hope this helps,

>

> Janet

>

> -----Original Message-----

> From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Don H

> Sent: December 19, 2021 10:58 AM

> To: chat@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: [chat] scam calls from Amazon

>

> Today I have gotten 5 scam calls saying they were from Amazon and that I had ordered a I phone for $999.  Each call were from different phone numbers.  I simply hang up but this is the first time I have gotten the same call 5 times within a hour.  Anyone else seeing a uptick in these scam calls from Amazon?  Of course these calls are not from Amazon.

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

 

 

 

 


Re: Scam Calls Claiming to be from Amazon

 

On Sun, Dec 19, 2021 at 03:23 PM, Don H wrote:
when you do that you are just indicating that your phone number is good.
-
Which is absolutely true.

It's the rare scammer that will actually even honor your demand not to be called again.  But you have confirmed for them that the line is active and a real human does, at least occasionally, answer.  Unfortunately, the same information can be gleaned by scammers even if voicemail picks up.

And they all sell number lists to each other.

I try to report the scammers to the FTC as much as I can, but since I virtually never answer anymore for any number that is not in my contacts or that I don't recognize on sight I'm not doing that so much these days.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain