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Re: Windows 11 and CPU Compatibility

Brian's Mail list account
 

Yes, unless you need for example a desktop with hardly any discernable fan noise etc. The whining of a drive is no longer the issue since SSDs. I have to say though that as early adopter of SSDs, I came unstuck when it got corrupted and Samsung could not help me with any tools. The new drive, also a Samsung SSd has been good, and has some tools that would have helped enormously on the old plug in chip ssd that was on the Motherboard.
I can of course upgrade this machine to a later Windows, but not 11, without changing the aforementioned motherboard, of course.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2022 5:24 PM
Subject: Re: [chat] Windows 11 and CPU Compatibility


On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 12:11 PM, Gene wrote:


I consider future proofing a bad idea because by the time you get to the
future where it matters, you can get a lot more power for a lot less money
than you would spend now.
-
As do I. My advice to clients is to purchase a machine that is, at most, "a little more than what you need right now," unless you know something's coming down the pike in the immediate future that you weren't using before.

A little breathing room in terms of processing power, and RAM, along with going SSD only on a new computer makes sense. But spending several thousand dollars on a machine that can handle online multi-player games involving 3D graphics or 3D modeling and simulation is just gross overkill if you don't do those things, and have no intention of doing those things.

It really should be presumed that 5 years is the functional service life of a computer. Yes, many of us can and do go past that, but it's a good "average figure." Businesses (medium and large ones, anyway) never keep their computers that long, which is why many people get top-notch refurbished business-class machines that go off lease for a song compared to what new costs, and where those machines at a couple of years old are still far superior to low-end consumer grade machines sold in Walmart (and other stores).

--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045

*There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.*

~ John Rogers


Re: Windows 11 and CPU Compatibility

 

On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 03:52 PM, Gene wrote:
But do you think the author is correct that a lot of people who were willing to upgrade to a new operating system in the past will now not be willing to do so if it means replacing their computers?
-
No, I do not.

There will be a subset of the user base that chooses to remain on unsupported Windows 10 (once Win10 has hit end of life), just like there were for all other versions of Windows.  The rest will do what's necessary to keep current, including replacing their hardware if that's the only way to have a supported version of Windows.

The latter are likely to have a substantial subset that wails and gnashes teeth about getting a new computer, but they'll get a new computer nonetheless.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.  One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

    ~ John Rogers


Re: Windows 11 and CPU Compatibility

Gene
 

But do you think the author is correct that a lot of people who were willing to upgrade to a new operating system in the past will now not be willing to do so if it means replacing their computers?  That seems likely to me.

Gene

On 10/26/2022 1:51 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 01:40 PM, Gene wrote:
Do you think Microsoft will make it considerably less restrictive to run Windows eleven as the deadline approaches?
-
I absolutely do not.

If anything, I would forsee the end-of-life date for Windows 10 being pushed out a year or two, but I don't even see that happening, really.

Sarah Alawami has said it in multiple contexts, but when it comes to computing, you either go with the flow or you end up drowning trying to resist it.  It's never been any other way, and people have always complained when big shifts were coming up and right afterward, but this is one of those instances where "becoming one with the borg" is not optional if you intend to remain viable over the long term.  And that's whether you're a home user or business user, but particularly if you're a business user.

Three years is an eternity in the computing world, and Windows 10 still has mainstream support for a few days less than 3 years right now.  Virtually any computer that you can buy (or lease) today already has Windows 11 on it unless special ordered with Windows 10.  And by the time another 3 years goes by, as I said earlier, non-compatible hardware will almost all be at a usual replacement interval anyway, except for the poor schlubs that purchased Windows 10 compatible only hardware in the window of about 1 year prior to the announcement of Windows 11 and its minimum hardware requirements.

The sooner everyone gets over the idea that they have any choice in the matter the better.  Decisions about OS development always have and always will include many factors that may not matter to me, personally, one whit.  But it's not about me, it's about the user base as a whole and where the OS maker intends to take the OS.  Feedback can be given, and it almost certainly gets entered into the mix of things considered, but for every bit of feedback that ends up considered and accepted as you would like, there's another that goes the opposite direction.  And a very great many things are rejected.  That's because operating systems are not bespoke software made to please you.  They're Swiss-Army Knife affairs meant to allow broad and diverse demographics all to use the same operating system and get done what needs doing, and each and every one of those demographics has to deal with compromises it would rather not.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.  One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

    ~ John Rogers



Re: Windows 11 and CPU Compatibility

 

On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 01:40 PM, Gene wrote:
Do you think Microsoft will make it considerably less restrictive to run Windows eleven as the deadline approaches?
-
I absolutely do not.

If anything, I would forsee the end-of-life date for Windows 10 being pushed out a year or two, but I don't even see that happening, really.

Sarah Alawami has said it in multiple contexts, but when it comes to computing, you either go with the flow or you end up drowning trying to resist it.  It's never been any other way, and people have always complained when big shifts were coming up and right afterward, but this is one of those instances where "becoming one with the borg" is not optional if you intend to remain viable over the long term.  And that's whether you're a home user or business user, but particularly if you're a business user.

Three years is an eternity in the computing world, and Windows 10 still has mainstream support for a few days less than 3 years right now.  Virtually any computer that you can buy (or lease) today already has Windows 11 on it unless special ordered with Windows 10.  And by the time another 3 years goes by, as I said earlier, non-compatible hardware will almost all be at a usual replacement interval anyway, except for the poor schlubs that purchased Windows 10 compatible only hardware in the window of about 1 year prior to the announcement of Windows 11 and its minimum hardware requirements.

The sooner everyone gets over the idea that they have any choice in the matter the better.  Decisions about OS development always have and always will include many factors that may not matter to me, personally, one whit.  But it's not about me, it's about the user base as a whole and where the OS maker intends to take the OS.  Feedback can be given, and it almost certainly gets entered into the mix of things considered, but for every bit of feedback that ends up considered and accepted as you would like, there's another that goes the opposite direction.  And a very great many things are rejected.  That's because operating systems are not bespoke software made to please you.  They're Swiss-Army Knife affairs meant to allow broad and diverse demographics all to use the same operating system and get done what needs doing, and each and every one of those demographics has to deal with compromises it would rather not.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.  One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

    ~ John Rogers


Re: Windows 11 and CPU Compatibility

 

On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 01:48 PM, Gene wrote:
But the way 32 bit programs work
-
Is that they work.  There's not much of a trick to "padding with zeros" to get to the correct word length.

16-bit programs (and I barely remember those) ran on early 32-bit versions of Windows for the same reason.  But, again, there are things other than bit-depth that enter the picture, too, and they've been previously discussed.

Everything has an expiration date.  The factors determining that vary somewhat, but fall into a couple of broad classes, and all of those broad classes involve money and effort if backward compatibility is to be maintained after "passive backward compatibility" is no longer an option.

I don't see 32-bit support on 64-bit hardware going anywhere at any point in the foreseeable future.  But I don't see 32-bit versions of programs being maintained, either.  Those are two entirely different things.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.  One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

    ~ John Rogers


Re: Windows 11 and CPU Compatibility

 

True, and anyway there will be others making it.

Pluss with microsoft getting github its more thhan likely it will either dump it to someone else but still include it as a universal app or simply just have it opensourced.

Microsoft has changed quite a lot from its old days, not all for the better but still it recognises it has to update like all of us.

The once yearly updates are partt of that.

Having thee potential of issues from updates for major stuff twice a year well they do release optional preview roleups and security anyway and with windows 11 they have stuff as it appears and with the universal apps tech they can do bits all the time.

For example a lot of core apps from the phhone link, etc are updated almost weekly and no one notices.


On 27/10/2022 6:48 am, Gene wrote:

But the way 32 bit programs work now in newer versions of Windows is that Windows has its own emulator for 32 bit programs.  While Microsoft might drop it at some point, I don't think it will until far into the future, if it does. 

Gene
On 10/26/2022 12:44 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:

I could see us loosing 32 bit at some stage which will mean a lot of older stuff won't work.

Of course its really not a problem keeping duel for various things as it effects everything from java to codecs to just about everything else and while 64 bit is default and preferd in a lot of cases 32 bit code  does exist to a great degree.

So I don't see that being an issue.

Technically with wpa3 the retiring of other protocols could be on the cards.

However while things like wifi 6 do exist this hasen't expanded into standard routers even isp related devices,  and the wifi 5, ac standard is still normal with some on the old wep and wpa wifi 4 g and n system but not many.

Little is being done to phhase standards like that.

There may be more online and such but covid will have pushed a lot of things back a little.

There will be supply issues and with the ever expanding war not to mention covid variants I don't see us speeding towards anything earth shattering right now.

Maybe if it gets better in the next 2 years or so we will restore and go up but we are approaching a nuclear exchange and with levels barely going along as it is I suspect unless it all goes right down to the ground we have enough technology to continue without going much higher at least for the home user.

Saying that anything small to medium may be whhere things move.

I don't think things like 5g/3g mobile standards will be shutting off any time soon for example.

However small improvements may be made, for example our local coms previder upgraded all the cables and modems during lockdown so our basic connection is 300mb by 100 instad of 100 by 20.

we have 50 by 10 right up to 8gb now though its costly over 1gb.

The basic 300mbps connection does mean though that most basic users really don't need the big upgrade.

I got office which wasa 5gb file in 2 minutes and unless you download more than that a day its not a big issue.

Unless you are a gamer that is.

My office licence gave me the choice of x86, x64 or a combined offline image.

Of course you need 7zip to extract it if you want to store it on a flash drive or backup medium but you can mount and use it so yeah there is that.


On 27/10/2022 6:17 am, Gene wrote:
What is the importance of the hardware break?

Gene

On 10/26/2022 11:18 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 12:08 PM, Gene wrote:
Does that mean that after Windows 10 goes out of support, hardware will start to change, thus making a lot of programs no longer run that have run going back for many versions of Windows?  I don't know anything about the hardware architecture question.
-
Gene,

That depends entirely on the nature of the program itself.  There are still scads of things that came on the scene during Win3.1 and WinXP that will run perfectly fine under Windows 10 and 11, often even without using compatibility mode, while there are many things that won't as well.

It's not likely that most programs that are perfectly happy today under Windows 10 are going to ever become unhappy under Windows 11, but I will never say never.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.  One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

    ~ John Rogers




Re: Windows 11 and CPU Compatibility

 

well they still sell systems especially business with win10 or 11 your choice.

However at least in the shop I use, pbtech there are a few 10th gen intels and 4th gen amds about and a few 9th gen intels even.

But most use 5th gen amds or 11th gen intels as standard now.

Some home builds run the 12th gen now but 10th and 11th seem to be bog standard units.

After all the specter and other things wintel released the 9th 10th 11th and 12th gen really quickly at almost the same time.

More 10 and 11 than the others, though after the security issues wiped out 8th gen really, you could see why.

That was why I switched to the amd 2nd gen because of its use of older chips which had not that issue.

I'd like to continue with amd chips or whatever the latest intel.

Intel have stable but less updated drivers and auch and amd update chips every 6 months or so and every month twice for their other stuff probably because they specialise in games and workstations.

Point is if you are happy with a few more bugs but like to stay updated amd is your man.

Its good for running some processes and tasks.

I had  to convert a bunch of files for an audio project at lest 10-20gb files and do a few things.

The thing did its job, for the first time in ages, the machine got hot and the fans raced but 1.5 hours later those files were ready to go so yeah.

There are a few slowdowns here and there but not for general use.

I think the issue for a lot of standard users is that all changes seem for the business side where security is a big issue.

Yeah we have security but its mostly online content.

My dad doesn't share files with people really and email is via googlemail which is quite secure on its own.

He uses outlook 2016 as a client but just about everything is google based.


On 27/10/2022 5:11 am, Gene wrote:

Also, are there implications for people who try to future proof their computers by spending much more for power and capacity, if that is the right word, than is currently necessary?  I consider future proofing a bad idea because by the time you get to the future where it matters, you can get a lot more power for a lot less money than you would spend now.

Gene

On 10/26/2022 11:08 AM, Gene via groups.io wrote:
Does that mean that after Windows 10 goes out of support, hardware will start to change, thus making a lot of programs no longer run that have run going back for many versions of Windows?  I don't know anything about the hardware architecture question.

Gene

On 10/26/2022 9:53 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 05:02 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Do you also recall the differences between AMD and Intel chips where AMD had something called 3d now and Intel had SSE2, and trying to run software compiled for one would not work on the other.
-
You've also brought up something that could easily be rolled into the discussion of Chrome dropping Windows 7 & 8.1 support.  With Windows 11, in particular, we are reaching a point where "a great hardware architecture break" will be taking place.

The hardware architecture, in addition to the OS, is always a part of conditional compilation (and the code maintenance necessary to achieve it) too.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.  One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

    ~ John Rogers




Re: Windows 11 and CPU Compatibility

Gene
 

But the way 32 bit programs work now in newer versions of Windows is that Windows has its own emulator for 32 bit programs.  While Microsoft might drop it at some point, I don't think it will until far into the future, if it does. 

Gene
On 10/26/2022 12:44 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:

I could see us loosing 32 bit at some stage which will mean a lot of older stuff won't work.

Of course its really not a problem keeping duel for various things as it effects everything from java to codecs to just about everything else and while 64 bit is default and preferd in a lot of cases 32 bit code  does exist to a great degree.

So I don't see that being an issue.

Technically with wpa3 the retiring of other protocols could be on the cards.

However while things like wifi 6 do exist this hasen't expanded into standard routers even isp related devices,  and the wifi 5, ac standard is still normal with some on the old wep and wpa wifi 4 g and n system but not many.

Little is being done to phhase standards like that.

There may be more online and such but covid will have pushed a lot of things back a little.

There will be supply issues and with the ever expanding war not to mention covid variants I don't see us speeding towards anything earth shattering right now.

Maybe if it gets better in the next 2 years or so we will restore and go up but we are approaching a nuclear exchange and with levels barely going along as it is I suspect unless it all goes right down to the ground we have enough technology to continue without going much higher at least for the home user.

Saying that anything small to medium may be whhere things move.

I don't think things like 5g/3g mobile standards will be shutting off any time soon for example.

However small improvements may be made, for example our local coms previder upgraded all the cables and modems during lockdown so our basic connection is 300mb by 100 instad of 100 by 20.

we have 50 by 10 right up to 8gb now though its costly over 1gb.

The basic 300mbps connection does mean though that most basic users really don't need the big upgrade.

I got office which wasa 5gb file in 2 minutes and unless you download more than that a day its not a big issue.

Unless you are a gamer that is.

My office licence gave me the choice of x86, x64 or a combined offline image.

Of course you need 7zip to extract it if you want to store it on a flash drive or backup medium but you can mount and use it so yeah there is that.


On 27/10/2022 6:17 am, Gene wrote:
What is the importance of the hardware break?

Gene

On 10/26/2022 11:18 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 12:08 PM, Gene wrote:
Does that mean that after Windows 10 goes out of support, hardware will start to change, thus making a lot of programs no longer run that have run going back for many versions of Windows?  I don't know anything about the hardware architecture question.
-
Gene,

That depends entirely on the nature of the program itself.  There are still scads of things that came on the scene during Win3.1 and WinXP that will run perfectly fine under Windows 10 and 11, often even without using compatibility mode, while there are many things that won't as well.

It's not likely that most programs that are perfectly happy today under Windows 10 are going to ever become unhappy under Windows 11, but I will never say never.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.  One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

    ~ John Rogers




Re: Windows 11 and CPU Compatibility

 

If anything else I'd imagine that as well as some software for access we will be expanding into the web space and a lot of things are online though we will keep some of the older systems, maybe a duel access will be done and thats nice.


On 27/10/2022 6:17 am, Gene wrote:

What is the importance of the hardware break?

Gene

On 10/26/2022 11:18 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 12:08 PM, Gene wrote:
Does that mean that after Windows 10 goes out of support, hardware will start to change, thus making a lot of programs no longer run that have run going back for many versions of Windows?  I don't know anything about the hardware architecture question.
-
Gene,

That depends entirely on the nature of the program itself.  There are still scads of things that came on the scene during Win3.1 and WinXP that will run perfectly fine under Windows 10 and 11, often even without using compatibility mode, while there are many things that won't as well.

It's not likely that most programs that are perfectly happy today under Windows 10 are going to ever become unhappy under Windows 11, but I will never say never.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.  One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

    ~ John Rogers



Re: Windows 11 and CPU Compatibility

 

I could see us loosing 32 bit at some stage which will mean a lot of older stuff won't work.

Of course its really not a problem keeping duel for various things as it effects everything from java to codecs to just about everything else and while 64 bit is default and preferd in a lot of cases 32 bit code  does exist to a great degree.

So I don't see that being an issue.

Technically with wpa3 the retiring of other protocols could be on the cards.

However while things like wifi 6 do exist this hasen't expanded into standard routers even isp related devices,  and the wifi 5, ac standard is still normal with some on the old wep and wpa wifi 4 g and n system but not many.

Little is being done to phhase standards like that.

There may be more online and such but covid will have pushed a lot of things back a little.

There will be supply issues and with the ever expanding war not to mention covid variants I don't see us speeding towards anything earth shattering right now.

Maybe if it gets better in the next 2 years or so we will restore and go up but we are approaching a nuclear exchange and with levels barely going along as it is I suspect unless it all goes right down to the ground we have enough technology to continue without going much higher at least for the home user.

Saying that anything small to medium may be whhere things move.

I don't think things like 5g/3g mobile standards will be shutting off any time soon for example.

However small improvements may be made, for example our local coms previder upgraded all the cables and modems during lockdown so our basic connection is 300mb by 100 instad of 100 by 20.

we have 50 by 10 right up to 8gb now though its costly over 1gb.

The basic 300mbps connection does mean though that most basic users really don't need the big upgrade.

I got office which wasa 5gb file in 2 minutes and unless you download more than that a day its not a big issue.

Unless you are a gamer that is.

My office licence gave me the choice of x86, x64 or a combined offline image.

Of course you need 7zip to extract it if you want to store it on a flash drive or backup medium but you can mount and use it so yeah there is that.


On 27/10/2022 6:17 am, Gene wrote:

What is the importance of the hardware break?

Gene

On 10/26/2022 11:18 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 12:08 PM, Gene wrote:
Does that mean that after Windows 10 goes out of support, hardware will start to change, thus making a lot of programs no longer run that have run going back for many versions of Windows?  I don't know anything about the hardware architecture question.
-
Gene,

That depends entirely on the nature of the program itself.  There are still scads of things that came on the scene during Win3.1 and WinXP that will run perfectly fine under Windows 10 and 11, often even without using compatibility mode, while there are many things that won't as well.

It's not likely that most programs that are perfectly happy today under Windows 10 are going to ever become unhappy under Windows 11, but I will never say never.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.  One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

    ~ John Rogers



Re: Windows 11 and CPU Compatibility

Gene
 

That clarifies things.  At first, I thought the hardware break might mean that many programs might no longer run but it is actually about requirements to run Windows.

I came across an article recently that said that when Windows 10 goes out of support, there is going to be a very serious problem because so many businesses and people won't want to buy new computers.  Do you think Microsoft will make it considerably less restrictive to run Windows eleven as the deadline approaches?

It sounds as though there may be a lot more data breaches if it doesn't or unless it extends Windows 10 support.

Gene

On 10/26/2022 12:32 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 01:17 PM, Gene wrote:
What is the importance of the hardware break?
-
I don't really know how to answer this.

Microsoft announced that Windows 11 would only run on machines with processors that meet their requirements and where the motherboards have TPM 2.0 (Trusted Platform Module 2.0).  It's an imposed break where hardware that does not meet the minimum requirements simply will not run (or not run with official support) Windows 11.

A very great many of us are going to need to get new computers when Windows 10 goes out of support in 2025.  But by then, the vast majority of us who are using Windows 10 will be doing so on computers that are "due for replacement" anyway.

Right now, though, anyone purchasing new hardware that might be NOS (New Old Stock) that comes with Windows 10 needs to be certain that they are purchasing a machine that has the hardware profile that allows an in-place upgrade to Windows 11.  Otherwise you are getting a computer that will be obsolete in the world of Windows in 3 years, which is just tossing money away for no good reason.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.  One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

    ~ John Rogers



Re: Windows 11 and CPU Compatibility

 

I doubt that any of this will happen really.

There is a push for the universal usb 3.2 standard and a few other things like that.

But win10 and 11 are just the same guts with the shells changed basically according to some.

Most use the universal apps and universal design so I don't think thats ever going to happen.

Microsoft is going cloud though so I guess at some point people could choose to buy hardware in another location, use it and that be it.


On 27/10/2022 5:08 am, Gene wrote:

Does that mean that after Windows 10 goes out of support, hardware will start to change, thus making a lot of programs no longer run that have run going back for many versions of Windows?  I don't know anything about the hardware architecture question.

Gene

On 10/26/2022 9:53 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 05:02 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Do you also recall the differences between AMD and Intel chips where AMD had something called 3d now and Intel had SSE2, and trying to run software compiled for one would not work on the other.
-
You've also brought up something that could easily be rolled into the discussion of Chrome dropping Windows 7 & 8.1 support.  With Windows 11, in particular, we are reaching a point where "a great hardware architecture break" will be taking place.

The hardware architecture, in addition to the OS, is always a part of conditional compilation (and the code maintenance necessary to achieve it) too.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.  One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

    ~ John Rogers



Re: Windows 11 and CPU Compatibility

 

Well my university was like that so a lot of virtual machines.

However my brother who works for a large engineering firm says that while they try to keep updated vms are a daily staple for old configurations, different environments, etc and are in fact a main tool for things.

He says he uses upwards of 10 different machines a day so I guess people just do that.

Money is another issue, lets face it unless we have a job and some have one funding upgrades without family or other support aint that easy.

For ages for example I have used office in a grey key level but thats only for machines I have little use of .

I recently changed because, 1 they expire after use so a reinstall won't get your office back and you need a new one and 2 for what I use office for I use it every day and I have gotten use to the interface.

But its always an issue.

Actually if you use outlook its round 350-400nz for just that in the small business adition and 700 or higher for pro with everything.

However for word, excell, powerpoint and one note its only 200 bucks for the home version.

I don't use outlook so home and student is fine enough

I never liked outlook anyway so there is that.

My aunt has outlook for attachments and the like but really doesn't use office.

I gave her a semi legal version to access attachments in outlook and do a few legal thhings though most is online and becides google docs etc.

originally I used word to view documents and the like and could have continued to use single use licences but I can't be bothered doing that so I got one locked for 1 device which is all I will ever need.

And if I get another system I'll just remove office on this one.

I like pro windows where I can because of extra controls but thats just me.

Hardware wize, my dad's system worked from when he got it in 2006 as a 4th gen intel till the beginning of this year when it just died.

He has a lenovo mini pc and thats good.

This is good because the shop I get this from has almost none left.

I use a 15th inch laptop for now on hp but I may either go to a 17th inch with duel drives or try an lenovo with the ability at 14 inches which will be smaller.

I do have as well as hard drive backups an external ssd backup so its not like its a big issue.

I do however deal with families that can't afford computers so geet yesterdays offcuts.

Sometimes they run right, sometimes they don't.

They use single use licences or outright cracked and pirated software because they don't have that sort of cash.

My issue with 365 is I hate subscriptions for my use that is.

My dad is about the only one using office and still uses 2016 here.

Eventually I want to get him the latest but its only his files, excell, word and outlook and thats about it.

However I plan either to get him to the home small business package or use thunderbird maybe.

Once you get anything above basic it becomes a bit of a bother with prices.

and 90% of office is covered in the base package anyway.

On 26/10/2022 9:54 pm, Brian's Mail list account via groups.io wrote:
I think there are two different issues here. The first is as you say, but nonetheless change for the sake of making a change does seem pointless. I'd put ribbons into this category.
With older versions of Windows like XP, there are still people using software that will not run on later systems, and because the hardware they support is now horribly expensive in its latest version and the device is still doing its job. I see no issues with using it, but make sure its isolated from security issues and just use the screenreader as it was then.
For vintage. Yes I think we all have a soft spot for the old days, when programming could be done in Basic with line numbers and simple to understand concepts like arrays, numeric and string, and variables the same and simple functions that performed the tasks on multiple inputs if the correct variables were provided.

Mine was the ZX Spectrum, which was made by Timex elsewhere, the Atari 8 bit etc. I never could afford the  BBC Micro!

Brian


Re: Windows 11 and CPU Compatibility

 

On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 01:17 PM, Gene wrote:
What is the importance of the hardware break?
-
I don't really know how to answer this.

Microsoft announced that Windows 11 would only run on machines with processors that meet their requirements and where the motherboards have TPM 2.0 (Trusted Platform Module 2.0).  It's an imposed break where hardware that does not meet the minimum requirements simply will not run (or not run with official support) Windows 11.

A very great many of us are going to need to get new computers when Windows 10 goes out of support in 2025.  But by then, the vast majority of us who are using Windows 10 will be doing so on computers that are "due for replacement" anyway.

Right now, though, anyone purchasing new hardware that might be NOS (New Old Stock) that comes with Windows 10 needs to be certain that they are purchasing a machine that has the hardware profile that allows an in-place upgrade to Windows 11.  Otherwise you are getting a computer that will be obsolete in the world of Windows in 3 years, which is just tossing money away for no good reason.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.  One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

    ~ John Rogers


Re: Windows 11 and CPU Compatibility

Gene
 

What is the importance of the hardware break?

Gene

On 10/26/2022 11:18 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 12:08 PM, Gene wrote:
Does that mean that after Windows 10 goes out of support, hardware will start to change, thus making a lot of programs no longer run that have run going back for many versions of Windows?  I don't know anything about the hardware architecture question.
-
Gene,

That depends entirely on the nature of the program itself.  There are still scads of things that came on the scene during Win3.1 and WinXP that will run perfectly fine under Windows 10 and 11, often even without using compatibility mode, while there are many things that won't as well.

It's not likely that most programs that are perfectly happy today under Windows 10 are going to ever become unhappy under Windows 11, but I will never say never.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.  One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

    ~ John Rogers



Re: Windows 11 and CPU Compatibility

 

On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 12:11 PM, Gene wrote:
I consider future proofing a bad idea because by the time you get to the future where it matters, you can get a lot more power for a lot less money than you would spend now.
-
As do I.  My advice to clients is to purchase a machine that is, at most, "a little more than what you need right now," unless you know something's coming down the pike in the immediate future that you weren't using before.

A little breathing room in terms of processing power, and RAM, along with going SSD only on a new computer makes sense.  But spending several thousand dollars on a machine that can handle online multi-player games involving 3D graphics or 3D modeling and simulation is just gross overkill if you don't do those things, and have no intention of doing those things.

It really should be presumed that 5 years is the functional service life of a computer.  Yes, many of us can and do go past that, but it's a good "average figure."  Businesses (medium and large ones, anyway) never keep their computers that long, which is why many people get top-notch refurbished business-class machines that go off lease for a song compared to what new costs, and where those machines at a couple of years old are still far superior to low-end consumer grade machines sold in Walmart (and other stores).
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.  One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

    ~ John Rogers


Re: Windows 11 and CPU Compatibility

 

On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 12:08 PM, Gene wrote:
Does that mean that after Windows 10 goes out of support, hardware will start to change, thus making a lot of programs no longer run that have run going back for many versions of Windows?  I don't know anything about the hardware architecture question.
-
Gene,

That depends entirely on the nature of the program itself.  There are still scads of things that came on the scene during Win3.1 and WinXP that will run perfectly fine under Windows 10 and 11, often even without using compatibility mode, while there are many things that won't as well.

It's not likely that most programs that are perfectly happy today under Windows 10 are going to ever become unhappy under Windows 11, but I will never say never.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.  One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

    ~ John Rogers


Re: End of Windows 7 and 8 Chrome support

 

On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 11:49 AM, Gene wrote:
What I meant to ask, if I didn't do so clearly, was whether you need different versions of browsers for different versions of Windows.
-
And as was mentioned on the other topic, you even need different versions of browsers (and certain other types of software that rely heavily on system calls and/or calls to assembly code) based not only upon the OS but also upon the hardware platform in combination with it.

This stuff was not simple even when I left employment as a full-time developer in the late 1990s, and its even less so now.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.  One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

    ~ John Rogers


Re: Windows 11 and CPU Compatibility

Gene
 

Also, are there implications for people who try to future proof their computers by spending much more for power and capacity, if that is the right word, than is currently necessary?  I consider future proofing a bad idea because by the time you get to the future where it matters, you can get a lot more power for a lot less money than you would spend now.

Gene

On 10/26/2022 11:08 AM, Gene via groups.io wrote:

Does that mean that after Windows 10 goes out of support, hardware will start to change, thus making a lot of programs no longer run that have run going back for many versions of Windows?  I don't know anything about the hardware architecture question.

Gene

On 10/26/2022 9:53 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 05:02 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Do you also recall the differences between AMD and Intel chips where AMD had something called 3d now and Intel had SSE2, and trying to run software compiled for one would not work on the other.
-
You've also brought up something that could easily be rolled into the discussion of Chrome dropping Windows 7 & 8.1 support.  With Windows 11, in particular, we are reaching a point where "a great hardware architecture break" will be taking place.

The hardware architecture, in addition to the OS, is always a part of conditional compilation (and the code maintenance necessary to achieve it) too.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.  One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

    ~ John Rogers




Re: Windows 11 and CPU Compatibility

Gene
 

Does that mean that after Windows 10 goes out of support, hardware will start to change, thus making a lot of programs no longer run that have run going back for many versions of Windows?  I don't know anything about the hardware architecture question.

Gene

On 10/26/2022 9:53 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 05:02 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Do you also recall the differences between AMD and Intel chips where AMD had something called 3d now and Intel had SSE2, and trying to run software compiled for one would not work on the other.
-
You've also brought up something that could easily be rolled into the discussion of Chrome dropping Windows 7 & 8.1 support.  With Windows 11, in particular, we are reaching a point where "a great hardware architecture break" will be taking place.

The hardware architecture, in addition to the OS, is always a part of conditional compilation (and the code maintenance necessary to achieve it) too.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045

There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged.  One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.

    ~ John Rogers


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