A message I sent the owner's list on list policy
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Gene
Here is a message I sent the owner's list
concerning list policy and problems with how the reboot message is
written. It is rather long.
I have no idea how many people are commenting on
such questions on the owner's list but stirring up discussion here may be
useful.
The message is under my signature.
Gene
Nimer and Brian
This message deals with list policy and with
problems with the reboot message itself.
My objection to the rules and guidelines is that
they may intimidate a lot of new users and that they may intimidate many new and
current users from asking questions. My main objection is to the archive
guideline.
You are going from one extreme to another.
You got some complaints and some people left the list because of repetition and
threads being too long and for some questions being asked repeatedly. But
if you eliminate off topic traffic and get people to read all list mail before
answering, you will have eliminated most of the off topic and repetitious
traffic, and if some people still complain or leave, then they aren't willing to
compromise and take the needs and lack of knowledge and skill of others into
account. the squeaky wheel may get the grease. But just because some
people leave or complain doesn't mean the list should be tailored to them.
A list like this entails some compromise.
Getting people to eliminate off topic traffic and
read all list traffic before answering are significant changes to how people
generally behave on lists, or I should say, on lists of blind users. I
haven't had enough experience with sighted lists to comment on those. And
that is one part of the compromise. For those who complain, accepting that
there will be some repetition is their part of the compromise. If they
aren't' willing to compromise to that extent when most of their complaint has
been addressed, that's their problem, not the lists and if they leave, they
leave. You can never please everyone. the list has over eleven
hundred members. Some people are going to be unhappy, no matter what is
done. This is a very large list and some complaints, even ten or twenty cannot
be assumed to be at all representative of the vast majority of members.
Which takes us back to the archive question again. Some complaints don't
justify a policy strongly encouraging use of archives or implying that it is an
expectation.
I have observed that a lot of blind people are not
good Internet users, and that includes many blind people who are good or
reasonably good computer users in other areas. I've been on general blind
technology help lists for almost two decades and I've concluded this after years
of observing questions and discussions regarding Internet use on such
lists.
If you let the perfect become the enemy of the
good, you will make the list less useful for many people and many may feel
unwelcome if the archive issue is not handled very carefully. It should be
addressed in such a way that it is stated that use of the archives will make the
list more efficient, if you want to encourage archive use. But it should
be very clearly stated that use of the archives is completely voluntary and not
a requirement and that this discussion is not intended to keep people from
asking questions even if they haven't checked the archives.
I've been on many blindness help technology
lists. None of them have a requirement or an expectation that the archives
be used. Maybe that is in part because a lot of blind people aren't good
Internet users.
Yesterday, you, Brian, told me in answering a
message, that it is a baseline expectation on e-mail lists that people use
archives. Maybe that's true in general. It isn't true in the
subculture of blindness e-mail lists and you are evidently not taking that into
account. This list is in that subculture and it will harm the list if the
general expectation is imposed on this list in a subculture that has no such
expectation.
Also, care must be taken to avoid making other
things seem as though they might be requirements that aren't. There is a
long section dealing with efficient list use in terms of reading messages you
want to read and avoiding others. In that discussion, users are asked to
read a tutorial on the subject. They shouldn't be asked. That will
really turn off a lot of users. If a tutorial is presented, it should be
clearly stated that those interested in managing their messages more efficiently
and avoiding threads they don't want to follow might benefit from reading
this tutorial and it might help them manage mail more efficiently on other lists
they are on. In other words, explain the benefits, and be very careful not
to be directive. its up to the users if they want to do this.
Here is the wording in the reboot message:
I will also ask that everyone take the time to read the following tutorial, which I put together, about: "Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io ...." That is, whether intended or not, very
directive. And it asks everyone to do something many people may have no
interest in doing because they may just want to read list mail, not manage
it.
It is also not clearly stated in the document what
is a guideline and what is a rule. Is using the archives a guideline,
completely voluntary, or a rule? Evidently, starting off topic threads is
a rule. but the document doesn't say, this is a rule or this is a
guideline or separate the discussion into different sections, a rules section
and a guidelines section and the difference between rules and guidelines isn't
discussed.
Gene |
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Brian's Mail list account
Hi, I did a more joy version of this a bit up this list, but it basically says what you say. I have had to leave lists in the past due to the clique effect, and these lists were all moderated by sighted people.
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I agree with you but will say this. I do not think that the tone is deliberately prescriptive. I hope not anyway, hence my joke post earlier. It is just one of those problems with the printed word over the way we speak. Brian bglists@... Sent via blueyonder. Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...> To: <chat@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Thursday, April 11, 2019 4:31 PM Subject: [chat] A message I sent the owner's list on list policy Here is a message I sent the owner's list concerning list policy and problems with how the reboot message is written. It is rather long. I have no idea how many people are commenting on such questions on the owner's list but stirring up discussion here may be useful. The message is under my signature. Gene Nimer and Brian This message deals with list policy and with problems with the reboot message itself. My objection to the rules and guidelines is that they may intimidate a lot of new users and that they may intimidate many new and current users from asking questions. My main objection is to the archive guideline. You are going from one extreme to another. You got some complaints and some people left the list because of repetition and threads being too long and for some questions being asked repeatedly. But if you eliminate off topic traffic and get people to read all list mail before answering, you will have eliminated most of the off topic and repetitious traffic, and if some people still complain or leave, then they aren't willing to compromise and take the needs and lack of knowledge and skill of others into account. the squeaky wheel may get the grease. But just because some people leave or complain doesn't mean the list should be tailored to them. A list like this entails some compromise. Getting people to eliminate off topic traffic and read all list traffic before answering are significant changes to how people generally behave on lists, or I should say, on lists of blind users. I haven't had enough experience with sighted lists to comment on those. And that is one part of the compromise. For those who complain, accepting that there will be some repetition is their part of the compromise. If they aren't' willing to compromise to that extent when most of their complaint has been addressed, that's their problem, not the lists and if they leave, they leave. You can never please everyone. the list has over eleven hundred members. Some people are going to be unhappy, no matter what is done. This is a very large list and some complaints, even ten or twenty cannot be assumed to be at all representative of the vast majority of members. Which takes us back to the archive question again. Some complaints don't justify a policy strongly encouraging use of archives or implying that it is an expectation. I have observed that a lot of blind people are not good Internet users, and that includes many blind people who are good or reasonably good computer users in other areas. I've been on general blind technology help lists for almost two decades and I've concluded this after years of observing questions and discussions regarding Internet use on such lists. If you let the perfect become the enemy of the good, you will make the list less useful for many people and many may feel unwelcome if the archive issue is not handled very carefully. It should be addressed in such a way that it is stated that use of the archives will make the list more efficient, if you want to encourage archive use. But it should be very clearly stated that use of the archives is completely voluntary and not a requirement and that this discussion is not intended to keep people from asking questions even if they haven't checked the archives. I've been on many blindness help technology lists. None of them have a requirement or an expectation that the archives be used. Maybe that is in part because a lot of blind people aren't good Internet users. Yesterday, you, Brian, told me in answering a message, that it is a baseline expectation on e-mail lists that people use archives. Maybe that's true in general. It isn't true in the subculture of blindness e-mail lists and you are evidently not taking that into account. This list is in that subculture and it will harm the list if the general expectation is imposed on this list in a subculture that has no such expectation. Also, care must be taken to avoid making other things seem as though they might be requirements that aren't. There is a long section dealing with efficient list use in terms of reading messages you want to read and avoiding others. In that discussion, users are asked to read a tutorial on the subject. They shouldn't be asked. That will really turn off a lot of users. If a tutorial is presented, it should be clearly stated that those interested in managing their messages more efficiently and avoiding threads they don't want to follow might benefit from reading this tutorial and it might help them manage mail more efficiently on other lists they are on. In other words, explain the benefits, and be very careful not to be directive. its up to the users if they want to do this. Here is the wording in the reboot message: I will also ask that everyone take the time to read the following tutorial, which I put together, about: "Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io ...." That is, whether intended or not, very directive. And it asks everyone to do something many people may have no interest in doing because they may just want to read list mail, not manage it. It is also not clearly stated in the document what is a guideline and what is a rule. Is using the archives a guideline, completely voluntary, or a rule? Evidently, starting off topic threads is a rule. but the document doesn't say, this is a rule or this is a guideline or separate the discussion into different sections, a rules section and a guidelines section and the difference between rules and guidelines isn't discussed. Gene |
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On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 04:05 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
I do not think that the tone is deliberately prescriptive.But it is, because rules and guidelines are, by their very nature, prescriptive. They should be. Readers, though, should be able to tell the difference between rules, which are something that can be enforced, and guidelines, which aren't enforced, per se, but laid out to create a common expectation. Anything prefaced with, "In order to make your experience with the NVDA Group as easy as it can be, we are asking members to please consider the following:," is not likely to be enforceable, but deserves careful consideration, which is exactly what was asked for. Vague suggestions and an effort to sound non-directive in a rules and guidelines document serves no one. That being said, a lot of the kerfluffle has been about what people wanted this document to say rather than what it actually says, and says pretty clearly. As Nimer suggested last night, please re-read it and keep in mind that a preamble to a section like the above means exactly what it says about what follows. We can't reach out through cyberspace and force anyone to do anything, nor will we try to. We're asking for your consideration for ourselves, "the staff," and the membership at large. -- Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 I cannot and will not cut my conscience to fit this year’s fashions . . . ~ Lillian Hellman, Letter to House Un-American Activities Committee, 5/19/1952 |
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Gene
I won't keep writing about this. However, the
problem has become clearer to me as I have seen it play out over time and I now
see it is a clash of cultures, the theme which I have built this message
around.
You are expecting a much higher level of
sophistication in terms of understanding when something is a guideline or a rule
than exists among those who are not experienced participants in general list
culture. A lot, perhaps the great majority of members of this list are on
blindness lists and not on general lists, where sighted members predominate and
control the culture. This is a clash of cultures between blind list
culture and sighted list culture and it should be given careful consideration
before you try to impose general list culture on a long standing and widespread
aspect of blind list culture. Cultural practices develop for a
reason. They meet the needs of an environment. Such is the top
posting requirement of blind list culture. And it is a reasonable
assumption that the reason that such a use the archives policy does not exist on
blindness lists is because so many blind people are poor Internet users.
Whether people are aware of it or not, that is the logical and likely reason to
account for what exists in blind list culture and is widespread. And it is
a very good one. I have never seen an archive guideline on any blindness
list I am on or have been on.
If, how, and to what extent such a policy should be
adopted and how members who have the Internet skill to do so should be
encouraged to do so are questions that should be given careful consideration in
the context of blind list culture before anything is done.
As moderator, you are an authority figure. It
is all too easy for people to feel excluded or barred from participating in the
list if something like this isn't handled very carefully. Better yet, just
make a suggestion in the way you have said is worthless, and leave it at
that. If you get off topic traffic sent to the chat list and you get
active members to read all mail before answering, you will have eliminated most
of the excess traffic you want to eliminate. I have not objected to those
attempts because they don't clash with blindness list culture. they are
administrative issues that may occur on any list as to what is permitted to be
posted. But the archives issue is a very strong clash of cultures and it
should be either handled very carefully or bettter yet, just left alone.
The archive issue is not important in terms of eliminating most of the unwanted
list traffic and it may be very harmful to the list if not handled very
carefully. A lot of list members may feel unwelcomed and that they
shouldn't post because they either can't, or think they can't, use the archives
or use them well.
Gene ----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 8:16 AM
Subject: Re: [chat] A message I sent the owner's list on list
policy I do not think that the tone is deliberately prescriptive.But it is, because rules and guidelines are, by their very nature, prescriptive. They should be. Readers, though, should be able to tell the difference between rules, which are something that can be enforced, and guidelines, which aren't enforced, per se, but laid out to create a common expectation. Anything prefaced with, "In order to make your experience with the NVDA Group as easy as it can be, we are asking members to please consider the following:," is not likely to be enforceable, but deserves careful consideration, which is exactly what was asked for. Vague suggestions and an effort to sound non-directive in a rules and guidelines document serves no one. That being said, a lot of the kerfluffle has been about what people wanted this document to say rather than what it actually says, and says pretty clearly. As Nimer suggested last night, please re-read it and keep in mind that a preamble to a section like the above means exactly what it says about what follows. We can't reach out through cyberspace and force anyone to do anything, nor will we try to. We're asking for your consideration for ourselves, "the staff," and the membership at large. -- Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 I cannot and will not cut my conscience to fit this year’s fashions . . . ~ Lillian Hellman, Letter to House Un-American Activities Committee, 5/19/1952 |
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On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 11:32 AM, Gene wrote:
You are expecting a much higher level of sophistication in terms of understanding when something is a guideline or a rule than exists among those who are not experienced participants in general list culture.Then, very simply, they learn through asking. I did, everyone does. We do it in each and every aspect of our lives. Your contention that because everyone is always a beginner at some point that's the demographic to be catered to is flawed, fatally flawed. It's not one I'll indulge, ever, as I've taught many a man and woman to fish, and happily. I refuse to treat people like they cannot learn the most basic of netiquette, and are not, indeed, generally wanting to do so. You comport yourself to the world around you, not the other way around. -- Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 I cannot and will not cut my conscience to fit this year’s fashions . . . ~ Lillian Hellman, Letter to House Un-American Activities Committee, 5/19/1952 |
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I believe that as well brian. As my instructors have said, "you either catch up or get left behind. I will not help you" I tend to treat all of my blind and sighted friends this way. I have made many an enemy but I could care less as long as they know that I'm trying to help. It's called tough love. Deal with it or there's the door. On 12 Apr 2019, at 9:21, Brian Vogel wrote:
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Gene
That is not my contention. A lot of people
won't even know there is a question to ask. They will believe these are
rules or have the force of rules.
And you said nothing about my comments about
archives and blind list culture and why it is what it is. You said that
people comport themselves to the world around them. What world?
People may be in different worlds at different times. As was once famously
asked, "What is truth?" On a sighted list, fine. This is not a
sighted list in terms of its membership and you are imposing your expectations
on the list without answering the question of why blind people cannot, among
themselves, use the culture that works best for them. I comport myself as
the sighted world does when I am with the sighted world. I have no
obligation to do so when among blind people.
What world are you asking members of this list to
comport themselves according to and why? and why is blindness list culture
what it is? Why does it differ from the sighted list culture in certain
ways?
Gene ----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: [chat] A message I sent the owner's list on list
policy You are expecting a much higher level of sophistication in terms of understanding when something is a guideline or a rule than exists among those who are not experienced participants in general list culture.Then, very simply, they learn through asking. I did, everyone does. We do it in each and every aspect of our lives. Your contention that because everyone is always a beginner at some point that's the demographic to be catered to is flawed, fatally flawed. It's not one I'll indulge, ever, as I've taught many a man and woman to fish, and happily. I refuse to treat people like they cannot learn the most basic of netiquette, and are not, indeed, generally wanting to do so. You comport yourself to the world around you, not the other way around. -- Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 I cannot and will not cut my conscience to fit this year’s fashions . . . ~ Lillian Hellman, Letter to House Un-American Activities Committee, 5/19/1952 |
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Gene,
I have said all I am going to say. This is, again, your axe and you can keep grinding it but I'm not going to help you. Your position is yours, but it is not nearly as widely shared as you wish to believe. -- Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 I cannot and will not cut my conscience to fit this year’s fashions . . . ~ Lillian Hellman, Letter to House Un-American Activities Committee, 5/19/1952 |
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It differs bcause many of us have ben told by our councilers and or teachers in school thetawe cannot use computers and to ask for help with everything. Don't us a screen reader or braille, use a human reader and no braille. That is how I was going to be taught in high school. I refused and almost got kicked out of my main stream classes because of that. These by the way were my vission teachers in high school. My main stream teachers did everything they could to help me. I still hear the same arguments , or did when I was teaching some of my stuents in 2015 to 2017 to read and write and do math.. It was very sad to see them this way. On 12 Apr 2019, at 10:51, Gene wrote:
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Gene
I'm not advocating that blind people not do
things. I have had my share of discrimination. I can't go through my
activities in daily life without often encountering some aspect of the general
public's attitudes toward blind people. I also know that a list, intended
to help people with questions about a screen-reader is not the place to make
revolutionary changes in the attitudes of blind culture and the views of blind
people about blindness. it is a help list for NVDA. It is a fact
that a lot of blind people are not good Internet users. That is not a
problem that will be solved by the list. You serve people by dealing with
them as they are and, if it is practical to encourage some sort of change,
fine. But this is not the NVDA and teaching proper attitudes towards
blindness list. It is not a list where people should be discouraged from
asking questions by imposing an expectation that the archives should be looked
through first.
On another list I am on, I made the mistake once or
twice of saying that blind people should learn how to do something rather than
ask list members to do it. the person wanted a copy of a political speech
sent to the list. I said that it would be better and that the person would
be a more confident and competent computer user over time if he learned how to
do this. I explained how to listen to the speech. I gave detailed
steps. The hostility the message was greeted with was enormous. How
dare I suggest this.
On another list, I made the mistake years ago of
suggesting on more than one occasion, that Google should be used for general
information questions. My point was that blind people shouldn't deprive
themselves of the enormous amount of information available to them for the first
time in history. The hostility was enormous. I don't make such
suggestions any more.
What is the purpose of the NVDA list? To
teach people who don't want to learn, how to use the archives or to help with
NVDA?
Gene From: Sarah k Alawami
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 1:14 PM
Subject: Re: [chat] A message I sent the owner's list on list
policy It differs bcause many of us have ben told by our councilers and or teachers in school thetawe cannot use computers and to ask for help with everything. Don't us a screen reader or braille, use a human reader and no braille. That is how I was going to be taught in high school. I refused and almost got kicked out of my main stream classes because of that. These by the way were my vission teachers in high school. My main stream teachers did everything they could to help me. I still hear the same arguments , or did when I was teaching some of my stuents in 2015 to 2017 to read and write and do math.. It was very sad to see them this way. On 12 Apr 2019, at 10:51, Gene wrote:
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The purpose of the list is to make the person use their tools first then come to the list. If you don't like that attitude then their's the door. Blind people need to learn to use the tools they have at hand first before asking for help from others. This has ben my attitude after I was taught differently. I always tell my students when I teach english that they need to practice and use the tools they have at hand such as their dictionary and google before coming to me next week for help. This has helped them in return. For the first time in my class I have a blind person. They are treated just like their sighted counter parts except I might read something to them once in a while, but after that they are on their own once I hang up, at least until next week. This blind person thanks me every week for being strict and hard. They are forced to practice and learn and to use their co workers during the week if they need it, plus google and the google assistant. I learn something new every week from this student, a new Spanish word of 3 in return. Lol! So it is beneficial to be hard and expected blind individuals to google and to look up in the archives. Let's change the stigma that we are helpless and get rid of, or at least make the trainer's jobs less necessary in the end. On 12 Apr 2019, at 11:33, Gene wrote:
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On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 02:33 PM, Gene wrote:
Which is a major, major, major problem, and not with you, Gene. It should be fought against with every ounce of strength. If you are on an e-mailing list and on the internet you had darned well better know how to do a web search or devote yourself to learning how. And that is ANYONE. There's nothing wrong with saying, "I don't know how to do that, can you explain how?" Heaven only knows how many step-by-step tutorials I have posted in this and other forums (and not exclusively related to blind technology) as I certainly have lost count. But don't you, any you, dare to come back at me with, "But I don't know how and someone (you) should do this for me!" Sorry, but no, no, never, never, never. Help is a two-way street, not a one way one, and if you (any you) refuse to even attempt to hold up your end then you deserve any negative feedback anyone cares to give you that is not unfit for mixed company. Being told, in response to a query where thousands, literally, of repeats of the answer are available from a simple (as in two or three search terms max, usually contained in the actual question), that you might want to consider doing a web search first is ever so justly deserved. It is pretty obvious, and pretty quickly, whether one is dealing with a neophyte who needs to be led by the hand, and justly so, or someone who wants someone else to do the not-even-heavy lifting. The former need coaching and teaching, the latter to be told in no uncertain terms that they should at least give it a try before imposing on my (or anyone else's) time. -- Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 I cannot and will not cut my conscience to fit this year’s fashions . . . ~ Lillian Hellman, Letter to House Un-American Activities Committee, 5/19/1952 |
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Sarah,
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So you teach English? I got really interested on this. Can you tell me more? Is it online or what? Em 12/04/2019 15:42, Sarah k Alawami
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On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 02:33 PM, Gene wrote:
What is the purpose of the NVDA list? To teach people who don't want to learn, how to use the archives or to help with NVDA?Let me make this crystal clear: The two are not, in any way, mutually exclusive. Why you're so hung up on asking -- not demanding, not forcing -- people to consider learning how to search the group archives remains a mystery to me. It's a fundamental skill that should be encouraged as much as possible, not portrayed as an untenable burden. It's just not, and there are lots who are willing to show anyone how to do so using either a web search engine (which I often prefer, honestly) or the built-in search function of Groups.io. -- Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 I cannot and will not cut my conscience to fit this year’s fashions . . . ~ Lillian Hellman, Letter to House Un-American Activities Committee, 5/19/1952 |
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I always just say google it and dont even listen to the person until they do, not in my english classes of corse but tech lists and stuff, I ignore all cries for help until I see they have taken the time to do research themselves. Either do it, get left behind or leave. Take care On 12 Apr 2019, at 15:03, Brian Vogel wrote:
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It is online and only for those in costa rica and through a company called talkdoit. If you have any questions visit their website. I am very proud to say I helped when they were. a pilot program. Take care On 12 Apr 2019, at 15:04, marcio via Groups.Io wrote:
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Ah, what a pity it's only for folks in Costa Rica.
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I'm in Brazil, so... Anyway, congrats for the job. English is opening many, many doors and it's nice to have people to teach it to us. Em 12/04/2019 19:41, Sarah k Alawami
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Gene
I'm not sure how much or if I should respond
because you said you didn't want to discuss the matter further. I answered
Sarah's comments, which is what you are responding to. So, unless you want
to discuss this more, I'll say this:
If you pursue this policy vigorously, you will
encounter enormous hostility and it may seriously lower list morale and cause
significant loss of membership. There are things that can be reasonably
changed and improved, such as getting off topic traffic on the chat list and
there are things that are quixotic to try to change.
And for the present, that's all I'll
say.
Gene ----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [chat] A message I sent the owner's list on list
policy Which is a major, major, major problem, and not with you, Gene. It should be fought against with every ounce of strength. If you are on an e-mailing list and on the internet you had darned well better know how to do a web search or devote yourself to learning how. And that is ANYONE. There's nothing wrong with saying, "I don't know how to do that, can you explain how?" Heaven only knows how many step-by-step tutorials I have posted in this and other forums (and not exclusively related to blind technology) as I certainly have lost count. But don't you, any you, dare to come back at me with, "But I don't know how and someone (you) should do this for me!" Sorry, but no, no, never, never, never. Help is a two-way street, not a one way one, and if you (any you) refuse to even attempt to hold up your end then you deserve any negative feedback anyone cares to give you that is not unfit for mixed company. Being told, in response to a query where thousands, literally, of repeats of the answer are available from a simple (as in two or three search terms max, usually contained in the actual question), that you might want to consider doing a web search first is ever so justly deserved. It is pretty obvious, and pretty quickly, whether one is dealing with a neophyte who needs to be led by the hand, and justly so, or someone who wants someone else to do the not-even-heavy lifting. The former need coaching and teaching, the latter to be told in no uncertain terms that they should at least give it a try before imposing on my (or anyone else's) time. -- Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 I cannot and will not cut my conscience to fit this year’s fashions . . . ~ Lillian Hellman, Letter to House Un-American Activities Committee, 5/19/1952 |
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One day. I can't promise, but one day we will expand. I hope I'm around to see it as this gift I'm giving is wonderful! Take care On 12 Apr 2019, at 15:41, marcio via Groups.Io wrote:
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Gene
You asked in a later message why I'm making so much
of this. Its because I've seen the hostility even what I suggested caused
and that's just me, a member of a list with no authority. People took my
suggestion as though it were a personal insult. I can't tell how
vigorously you are going to pursue this or how, but if you pursue it vigorously,
I think the hostility and damage to list morale may be very
serious.
Gene ----- Original Message -----
From: Gene via Groups.Io
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 6:11 PM
Subject: Re: [chat] A message I sent the owner's list on list
policy I'm not sure how much or if I should respond
because you said you didn't want to discuss the matter further. I answered
Sarah's comments, which is what you are responding to. So, unless you want
to discuss this more, I'll say this:
If you pursue this policy vigorously, you will
encounter enormous hostility and it may seriously lower list morale and cause
significant loss of membership. There are things that can be reasonably
changed and improved, such as getting off topic traffic on the chat list and
there are things that are quixotic to try to change.
And for the present, that's all I'll
say.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, April 12, 2019 5:03 PM
Subject: Re: [chat] A message I sent the owner's list on list
policy Which is a major, major, major problem, and not with you, Gene. It should be fought against with every ounce of strength. If you are on an e-mailing list and on the internet you had darned well better know how to do a web search or devote yourself to learning how. And that is ANYONE. There's nothing wrong with saying, "I don't know how to do that, can you explain how?" Heaven only knows how many step-by-step tutorials I have posted in this and other forums (and not exclusively related to blind technology) as I certainly have lost count. But don't you, any you, dare to come back at me with, "But I don't know how and someone (you) should do this for me!" Sorry, but no, no, never, never, never. Help is a two-way street, not a one way one, and if you (any you) refuse to even attempt to hold up your end then you deserve any negative feedback anyone cares to give you that is not unfit for mixed company. Being told, in response to a query where thousands, literally, of repeats of the answer are available from a simple (as in two or three search terms max, usually contained in the actual question), that you might want to consider doing a web search first is ever so justly deserved. It is pretty obvious, and pretty quickly, whether one is dealing with a neophyte who needs to be led by the hand, and justly so, or someone who wants someone else to do the not-even-heavy lifting. The former need coaching and teaching, the latter to be told in no uncertain terms that they should at least give it a try before imposing on my (or anyone else's) time. -- Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763 I cannot and will not cut my conscience to fit this year’s fashions . . . ~ Lillian Hellman, Letter to House Un-American Activities Committee, 5/19/1952 |
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