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Hamburger Menus and Such

Quentin Christensen #5208 ProWritingAid definitely isn't as accessible as it used to be. Once you open a document, the structure of the page seems to be top menu (settings / share etc), then you tab through the list of reports available, then you get to the document sidebar (visually it aims to be kind of like a tree view of your ProWritingAid documents), then the details of the current report and then finally you get to the text of the document itself. So while you can tab through it all, when the focus starts on the document, if you tab from there, you'll go straight out of the page and into the browsers address bar / controls. The Summary report you wanted is there, but the way it works is slightly differently - it pops up the report over the top of the window - like some other pop ups, the content is placed at the bottom of the current page, so the easiest way to get to it seems to be to jump to the bottom of the page and work back. There is an "open in new window" button, and I was hoping that might give us a URL we could use, but it's all scripted and the URL comes up as about:blank - which isn't overly helpful. It seems to have keyboard shortcuts, and they are likely the best way to achieve anything - for instance when I pressed alt+d to go to the address bar, it instead loaded the Diction, vague and abstract words check. So that's handy.... except I can't actually find a list of these keyboard shortcuts... toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Thu, Jun 9, 2022 at 1:09 AM David Russell <david.sonofhashem@...> wrote: Hello Chat, Since we are back to discussing ProWritingAid, When I press enter on my account name and user name and then go to the top via control-home, I scroll down with the down arrow and hear menu or submenu which I expand via the enter key. When entering the link for documents, I type in what document I want to view. Now, only the document itself is shown, no summary report. There is nothing revealed when tabbing or arrowing to indicate navigation, menu, report summary, etc. I don't know how on earth to get the summary report for a specific document. I liked this tool for its various measures that a document undergoes assessment as mentioned by Quentin. If you are following this Quentin, when is the last time you visited ProWritingAid? How is it still usable or accessible to a blind person? I did make changes in user settings, to restore the classic report summary 2 days ago. The person who said Grammarly is inaccessible also alludes that the other third party resources too are inaccessible. It sounds like 'inaccessible' means different things to different people from what has been said here. I understand inaccessible to mean, not able to use, not able to locate or find. I do hope to hear from PWA Support soon concerning advisement on how to use their program in light of these changes. I do hope Quentin is still on board with this topic and chooses to reply. Best to all. -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@... -- Quentin Christensen Training and Support Manager Web: www.nvaccess.org Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/ Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/ User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess Twitter: @NVAccess
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Brian's Mail list account #5206 A thesaurus is a good investment I find. However I have to say being as lazy as most blokes I know, I do have quite a wide vocabulary (They can't sue you for that, honest), and repeated listening to the file can indeed show up most weird bits. I often wonder when reading so called grammar and spellchecked files, quite how they end up so boring and similar. People like a bit of personality, yes even in tutorials. Brian -- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. toggle quoted message Show quoted text ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Russell" <david.sonofhashem@...> To: <chat@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Wednesday, June 08, 2022 2:15 AM Subject: [chat] Hamburger Menus and Such Hello NVDA Chat, This is a bit of an expansion on the thread I started concerning using a screen reader with an editing tool called ProWritingAid. The hamburger menu and being able to locate it, is the issue. Chances are, it is inaccessible due to design from what I read. I did a Google search on Grammarly Accessibility with NVDA, and here is the answer from an old group post which was the first Google result: It is completely inaccessible with any screen reader. Your best option would be to change the grammar checker in MS Word to also check for styles, not just grammar. If I rely on MS Word then, will I only hear a buzz sound when something is found to be amiss? Can MS Word provide detailed info about sticky sentences, redundant words, mispelling, reading grade level etc? I am trying to keep costs to a limit in hiring a freelance editor by doing as much self-editing as feasible. Thanks once again. -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@...
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David Russell <david.sonofhashem@...> #5202 Hello Chat, Since we are back to discussing ProWritingAid, When I press enter on my account name and user name and then go to the top via control-home, I scroll down with the down arrow and hear menu or submenu which I expand via the enter key. When entering the link for documents, I type in what document I want to view. Now, only the document itself is shown, no summary report. There is nothing revealed when tabbing or arrowing to indicate navigation, menu, report summary, etc. I don't know how on earth to get the summary report for a specific document. I liked this tool for its various measures that a document undergoes assessment as mentioned by Quentin. If you are following this Quentin, when is the last time you visited ProWritingAid? How is it still usable or accessible to a blind person? I did make changes in user settings, to restore the classic report summary 2 days ago. The person who said Grammarly is inaccessible also alludes that the other third party resources too are inaccessible. It sounds like 'inaccessible' means different things to different people from what has been said here. I understand inaccessible to mean, not able to use, not able to locate or find. I do hope to hear from PWA Support soon concerning advisement on how to use their program in light of these changes. I do hope Quentin is still on board with this topic and chooses to reply. Best to all. -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@...
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Quentin Christensen #5201 Possibly, I must admit I haven't looked into it. One consideration would be that for the API, you only get a few calls for free, beyond that you have to pay ($100 for 10,000 calls, $500 for 100,000 calls - according to https://prowritingaid.com/en/App/API ) toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Wed, Jun 8, 2022 at 9:26 PM Pranav Lal <pranav@...> wrote: Quentin, I believe pro writing aid has an API. Can that be used to make it more accessible? Pranav From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Quentin Christensen Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 10:50 AM To: chat@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [chat] Hamburger Menus and Such I looked at Grammarly awhile ago and it is still inaccessible. Basically what it does is it analysis the text you type anywhere, and it draws an underline to indicate spelling or grammar errors etc - but not in any way which can be detected by a screen reader. There is a standalone editor, but last I looked it wasn't accessible at all. ProWritingAid is more accessible. They used to have a screen reader friendly editor separate from the main one, but they seem to have ditched that and now made the main one more accessible - though not quite as easy to get around as it could be. The hamburger menu is accessible, from memory it just identifies itself as "menu". ProWritingAid offers very advanced and complex editing advise, so it depends on exactly what your needs are as to whether it is suitable. It offers analysis on repeated phrases, structure, length, readability, cliches, alliteration and much more. Another one I've tried is Hemingway editor, and while I love the interface visually, and that it highlights things like complex sentences, adverbs and words which could be simpler, and also gives a readability score / grade..... Most of its highlighting is also inaccessible. You can set NVDA to report colours and that works when reading text in it, but it would be great if it was a little friendlier. It also does NOT offer spell check, so you'll want to run your text through a spell checker elsewhere if you do use this tool. Hemingway comes as a web app: https://hemingwayapp.com/ Or a desktop app for $20: https://hemingwayapp.com/desktop.html The spelling and grammar check in Word is probably the easiest to use, and has definitely improved over time, although it doesn't offer as much functionality for detailed grammatical analysis as the other tools around. On Wed, Jun 8, 2022 at 11:47 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote: If Grammarly is a different service, you can't assume anything applies to the service you are asking about. On the web page, when you start moving down from the top of the page, do you see anything referring to a menu such as navigation button or settings button? I don't know how the service works but whether the actual information the service shows when it finds errors is accessible isn't related to whether the settings or navigation menu is accessible. They are completely different issues. The settings or navigation button is web site design in terms of general structures on a web site. The actual grammar checking interface is the interface the service is using and whether it is accessible is unrelated to the hamburger icon. I seldom use Word and I just about never use the grammar checker so I'll let others answer the question. I'm discussing something of more general application, distinguishing between general web site design and a specific interface or perhaps an embedded application used on a web site and also that you can't generalize from one service to another in terms of accessibility. What I'm saying about a navigation or settings button may help yo on other web sites since these sorts of buttons are common on web sites where you work with settings and where navigation links are hidden by a menu that expands when you press enter on the button. Gene On 6/7/2022 8:15 PM, David Russell wrote: Hello NVDA Chat, This is a bit of an expansion on the thread I started concerning using a screen reader with an editing tool called ProWritingAid. The hamburger menu and being able to locate it, is the issue. Chances are, it is inaccessible due to design from what I read. I did a Google search on Grammarly Accessibility with NVDA, and here is the answer from an old group post which was the first Google result: It is completely inaccessible with any screen reader. Your best option would be to change the grammar checker in MS Word to also check for styles, not just grammar. If I rely on MS Word then, will I only hear a buzz sound when something is found to be amiss? Can MS Word provide detailed info about sticky sentences, redundant words, mispelling, reading grade level etc? I am trying to keep costs to a limit in hiring a freelance editor by doing as much self-editing as feasible. Thanks once again. -- Quentin Christensen Training and Support Manager Web: www.nvaccess.org Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/ Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/ User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess Twitter: @NVAccess -- Quentin Christensen Training and Support Manager Web: www.nvaccess.org Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/ Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/ User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess Twitter: @NVAccess
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Pranav Lal #5200 Quentin, I believe pro writing aid has an API. Can that be used to make it more accessible? Pranav toggle quoted message Show quoted text From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Quentin Christensen Sent: Wednesday, June 8, 2022 10:50 AM To: chat@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [chat] Hamburger Menus and Such I looked at Grammarly awhile ago and it is still inaccessible. Basically what it does is it analysis the text you type anywhere, and it draws an underline to indicate spelling or grammar errors etc - but not in any way which can be detected by a screen reader. There is a standalone editor, but last I looked it wasn't accessible at all. ProWritingAid is more accessible. They used to have a screen reader friendly editor separate from the main one, but they seem to have ditched that and now made the main one more accessible - though not quite as easy to get around as it could be. The hamburger menu is accessible, from memory it just identifies itself as "menu". ProWritingAid offers very advanced and complex editing advise, so it depends on exactly what your needs are as to whether it is suitable. It offers analysis on repeated phrases, structure, length, readability, cliches, alliteration and much more. Another one I've tried is Hemingway editor, and while I love the interface visually, and that it highlights things like complex sentences, adverbs and words which could be simpler, and also gives a readability score / grade..... Most of its highlighting is also inaccessible. You can set NVDA to report colours and that works when reading text in it, but it would be great if it was a little friendlier. It also does NOT offer spell check, so you'll want to run your text through a spell checker elsewhere if you do use this tool. Hemingway comes as a web app: https://hemingwayapp.com/ Or a desktop app for $20: https://hemingwayapp.com/desktop.html The spelling and grammar check in Word is probably the easiest to use, and has definitely improved over time, although it doesn't offer as much functionality for detailed grammatical analysis as the other tools around. On Wed, Jun 8, 2022 at 11:47 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote: If Grammarly is a different service, you can't assume anything applies to the service you are asking about. On the web page, when you start moving down from the top of the page, do you see anything referring to a menu such as navigation button or settings button? I don't know how the service works but whether the actual information the service shows when it finds errors is accessible isn't related to whether the settings or navigation menu is accessible. They are completely different issues. The settings or navigation button is web site design in terms of general structures on a web site. The actual grammar checking interface is the interface the service is using and whether it is accessible is unrelated to the hamburger icon. I seldom use Word and I just about never use the grammar checker so I'll let others answer the question. I'm discussing something of more general application, distinguishing between general web site design and a specific interface or perhaps an embedded application used on a web site and also that you can't generalize from one service to another in terms of accessibility. What I'm saying about a navigation or settings button may help yo on other web sites since these sorts of buttons are common on web sites where you work with settings and where navigation links are hidden by a menu that expands when you press enter on the button. Gene On 6/7/2022 8:15 PM, David Russell wrote: Hello NVDA Chat, This is a bit of an expansion on the thread I started concerning using a screen reader with an editing tool called ProWritingAid. The hamburger menu and being able to locate it, is the issue. Chances are, it is inaccessible due to design from what I read. I did a Google search on Grammarly Accessibility with NVDA, and here is the answer from an old group post which was the first Google result: It is completely inaccessible with any screen reader. Your best option would be to change the grammar checker in MS Word to also check for styles, not just grammar. If I rely on MS Word then, will I only hear a buzz sound when something is found to be amiss? Can MS Word provide detailed info about sticky sentences, redundant words, mispelling, reading grade level etc? I am trying to keep costs to a limit in hiring a freelance editor by doing as much self-editing as feasible. Thanks once again. -- Quentin Christensen Training and Support Manager Web: www.nvaccess.org Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/ Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/ User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess Twitter: @NVAccess
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Quentin Christensen #5199 I looked at Grammarly awhile ago and it is still inaccessible. Basically what it does is it analysis the text you type anywhere, and it draws an underline to indicate spelling or grammar errors etc - but not in any way which can be detected by a screen reader. There is a standalone editor, but last I looked it wasn't accessible at all. ProWritingAid is more accessible. They used to have a screen reader friendly editor separate from the main one, but they seem to have ditched that and now made the main one more accessible - though not quite as easy to get around as it could be. The hamburger menu is accessible, from memory it just identifies itself as "menu". ProWritingAid offers very advanced and complex editing advise, so it depends on exactly what your needs are as to whether it is suitable. It offers analysis on repeated phrases, structure, length, readability, cliches, alliteration and much more. Another one I've tried is Hemingway editor, and while I love the interface visually, and that it highlights things like complex sentences, adverbs and words which could be simpler, and also gives a readability score / grade..... Most of its highlighting is also inaccessible. You can set NVDA to report colours and that works when reading text in it, but it would be great if it was a little friendlier. It also does NOT offer spell check, so you'll want to run your text through a spell checker elsewhere if you do use this tool. Hemingway comes as a web app: https://hemingwayapp.com/ Or a desktop app for $20: https://hemingwayapp.com/desktop.html The spelling and grammar check in Word is probably the easiest to use, and has definitely improved over time, although it doesn't offer as much functionality for detailed grammatical analysis as the other tools around. toggle quoted message Show quoted text On Wed, Jun 8, 2022 at 11:47 AM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote: If Grammarly is a different service, you can't assume anything applies to the service you are asking about. On the web page, when you start moving down from the top of the page, do you see anything referring to a menu such as navigation button or settings button? I don't know how the service works but whether the actual information the service shows when it finds errors is accessible isn't related to whether the settings or navigation menu is accessible. They are completely different issues. The settings or navigation button is web site design in terms of general structures on a web site. The actual grammar checking interface is the interface the service is using and whether it is accessible is unrelated to the hamburger icon. I seldom use Word and I just about never use the grammar checker so I'll let others answer the question. I'm discussing something of more general application, distinguishing between general web site design and a specific interface or perhaps an embedded application used on a web site and also that you can't generalize from one service to another in terms of accessibility. What I'm saying about a navigation or settings button may help yo on other web sites since these sorts of buttons are common on web sites where you work with settings and where navigation links are hidden by a menu that expands when you press enter on the button. Gene On 6/7/2022 8:15 PM, David Russell wrote: Hello NVDA Chat, This is a bit of an expansion on the thread I started concerning using a screen reader with an editing tool called ProWritingAid. The hamburger menu and being able to locate it, is the issue. Chances are, it is inaccessible due to design from what I read. I did a Google search on Grammarly Accessibility with NVDA, and here is the answer from an old group post which was the first Google result: It is completely inaccessible with any screen reader. Your best option would be to change the grammar checker in MS Word to also check for styles, not just grammar. If I rely on MS Word then, will I only hear a buzz sound when something is found to be amiss? Can MS Word provide detailed info about sticky sentences, redundant words, mispelling, reading grade level etc? I am trying to keep costs to a limit in hiring a freelance editor by doing as much self-editing as feasible. Thanks once again. -- Quentin Christensen Training and Support Manager Web: www.nvaccess.org Training: https://www.nvaccess.org/shop/ Certification: https://certification.nvaccess.org/ User group: https://nvda.groups.io/g/nvda Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess Twitter: @NVAccess
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Gene #5198 If Grammarly is a different service, you can't assume anything applies to the service you are asking about. On the web page, when you start moving down from the top of the page, do you see anything referring to a menu such as navigation button or settings button? I don't know how the service works but whether the actual information the service shows when it finds errors is accessible isn't related to whether the settings or navigation menu is accessible. They are completely different issues. The settings or navigation button is web site design in terms of general structures on a web site. The actual grammar checking interface is the interface the service is using and whether it is accessible is unrelated to the hamburger icon. I seldom use Word and I just about never use the grammar checker so I'll let others answer the question. I'm discussing something of more general application, distinguishing between general web site design and a specific interface or perhaps an embedded application used on a web site and also that you can't generalize from one service to another in terms of accessibility. What I'm saying about a navigation or settings button may help yo on other web sites since these sorts of buttons are common on web sites where you work with settings and where navigation links are hidden by a menu that expands when you press enter on the button. Gene On 6/7/2022 8:15 PM, David Russell wrote: toggle quoted message Show quoted text Hello NVDA Chat, This is a bit of an expansion on the thread I started concerning using a screen reader with an editing tool called ProWritingAid. The hamburger menu and being able to locate it, is the issue. Chances are, it is inaccessible due to design from what I read. I did a Google search on Grammarly Accessibility with NVDA, and here is the answer from an old group post which was the first Google result: It is completely inaccessible with any screen reader. Your best option would be to change the grammar checker in MS Word to also check for styles, not just grammar. If I rely on MS Word then, will I only hear a buzz sound when something is found to be amiss? Can MS Word provide detailed info about sticky sentences, redundant words, mispelling, reading grade level etc? I am trying to keep costs to a limit in hiring a freelance editor by doing as much self-editing as feasible. Thanks once again.
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David Russell <david.sonofhashem@...> #5197 Hello NVDA Chat, This is a bit of an expansion on the thread I started concerning using a screen reader with an editing tool called ProWritingAid. The hamburger menu and being able to locate it, is the issue. Chances are, it is inaccessible due to design from what I read. I did a Google search on Grammarly Accessibility with NVDA, and here is the answer from an old group post which was the first Google result: It is completely inaccessible with any screen reader. Your best option would be to change the grammar checker in MS Word to also check for styles, not just grammar. If I rely on MS Word then, will I only hear a buzz sound when something is found to be amiss? Can MS Word provide detailed info about sticky sentences, redundant words, mispelling, reading grade level etc? I am trying to keep costs to a limit in hiring a freelance editor by doing as much self-editing as feasible. Thanks once again. -- David C. Russell, Author david.sonofhashem@...
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