k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days
Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.
Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.
Mary
I don't uninstall programs even if I usually use another one for the purpose the program serves. One day, there might be a reason to use the one I seldom use.
Gene
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.
Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.
Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.
Mary
I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.
I'm happy to hear it worked for you.
All the best,
Dennis
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.
Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.
Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.
Mary
On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote:
Hello Mary
I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.
I'm happy to hear it worked for you.
All the best,
DennisOn 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.
Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.
Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.
Mary
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.
Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't realize that that is what they are advocating.
Gene
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote: Hello Mary I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac. I'm happy to hear it worked for you. All the best, DennisOn 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote: For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting. Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text. Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more. Mary
Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view, daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count the number of screen readers or other solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.
Mary
I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.
Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't realize that that is what they are advocating.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote: Hello Mary I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac. I'm happy to hear it worked for you. All the best, DennisOn 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote: For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting. Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text. Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more. Mary
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.-
Well, I'd say your wish is not going to be met, as Narrator is nipping at the heels of the other screen readers that run on Windows, though its market share right now is small. There is no doubt that Microsoft intends Narrator to be very serious competition for all the existing screen readers. But that is by no means any guarantee that it will take over the market, but it will definitely be making further inroads.
--
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
I'd say some of this is not quite accurate. For one, you can buy Jaws for a hundred a year, and keep getting updates. They have switched to the subscription model Microsoft uses. As long as you pay, you will keep getting updates.
Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view, daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count the number of screen readers or other solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.
Mary
On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.
Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't realize that that is what they are advocating.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote: Hello Mary I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac. I'm happy to hear it worked for you. All the best, DennisOn 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote: For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting. Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text. Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more. Mary
Ok, but there is a huge learning curve, and I'm not up for it. I've done the huge learning curve on several systems, including proprietary at work, and I'm just done.
I'd say some of this is not quite accurate. For one, you can buy Jaws for a hundred a year, and keep getting updates. They have switched to the subscription model Microsoft uses. As long as you pay, you will keep getting updates.
On 8/13/2022 9:24 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view, daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count the number of screen readers or other solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.
Mary
On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.
Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't realize that that is what they are advocating.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote: Hello Mary I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac. I'm happy to hear it worked for you. All the best, DennisOn 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote: For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting. Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text. Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more. Mary
Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually remember.-
Which explains why Narrator (and NVDA, for that matter) have hewed quite closely to the JAWS shortcuts. I started using NVDA (to the extent I do) because I could not possibly have afforded JAWS for what I use it for when it was a non-subscription purchase and there were way more similarities than differences. Narrator "generation 2" made a concerted effort to hew much more closely to the JAWS/NVDA shortcut paradigm.
I think all screen reader developers (for a given platform) have learned that making onboarding from competitors as easy as possible is the thing to do.
--
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
Commands for browsing the Internet, that is navigation commands such as h for heading, n for skip blocks of links are quite standardized these days.
And you don't have to own JAWS to benefit from having two screen-readers available. You can use a JAWS demo for times when NVDA doesn't do something or do it well. Many people can use NVDA for pretty much anything.
I've used Window-eyes, NVDA, JAWS, System Access, and I've played with Narrator so I have lots of experience to say what I've said. If you know Windows basics and program structures, which are in many cases the same as Windows structures, menus, dialogs, and in some programs and in some places in Windows ribbons, you can do a lot knowing little about any screen-reader.
It is an advantage to have more than one screen-reader.
For the majority of people, most of the learning done is the structures of Windows and Windows programs. The screen-reader is not a large part of what is learned. Depending on how you use programs, you would learn more or less about a screen-reader.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 8:24 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view, daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count the number of screen readers or other solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.
Mary
On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.
Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't realize that that is what they are advocating.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote: Hello Mary I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac. I'm happy to hear it worked for you. All the best, DennisOn 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote: For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting. Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text. Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more. Mary
Gene
On Sat, Aug 13, 2022 at 09:09 PM, Gene wrote:
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.-
Well, I'd say your wish is not going to be met, as Narrator is nipping at the heels of the other screen readers that run on Windows, though its market share right now is small. There is no doubt that Microsoft intends Narrator to be very serious competition for all the existing screen readers. But that is by no means any guarantee that it will take over the market, but it will definitely be making further inroads.
--
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
Used to use it cracked while at school.
But after I started doing things and with all the malware about I got
out of pirating.
Its been a thing to get on the list.
I liked the ability for scanning, braille translation and other such things.
That may be. So far, Narrator is much more limited, though it can do a
lot more than it used to.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 8:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:On Sat, Aug 13, 2022 at 09:09 PM, Gene wrote:
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want
Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of
competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to
destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a
monopoly will exist.
-
Well, I'd say your wish is not going to be met, as Narrator is nipping
at the heels of the other screen readers that run on Windows, though
its market share right now is small. There is no doubt that Microsoft
intends Narrator to be very serious competition for all the existing
screen readers. But that is by no means any guarantee that it will
take over the market, but it will definitely be making further inroads.
--
Brian -Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
*/Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance
and conscientious stupidity./*
~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
I do still scan in books and many documents. I use a Fujitsu combination flatbed scanner with a built in document feeder. I think I bought it in 2012. It is very fast such that when it is feeding through pages, it feeds so quickly there is almost no noticeable delay between pages. I can knock off a book very quickly.
I usually pull PDF files into Kurzweil to read, though I can also use ABBYY Finereader for the same purpose. To create PDF files I pull non PDF files into ABBYY and then save to PDF.
I remember that we were both on the Kurzweil Beta testing team back in the good ole days. Are you still in contact with Stephen? I haven't talked with him since he left Kurzweil.
With regard to Windows I still use Windows 10.
Its wonderful to see you posting here and I am happy to see you are still doing well.
All the best,
Dennis
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote:
Hello Mary
I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.
I'm happy to hear it worked for you.
All the best,
DennisOn 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.
Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.
Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.
Mary
I think that one reason why Narrator won’t gain much ground in the corporate sector is due to its current lack of customization. One benefit of JAWS is that it offers a large amount of options to configure how things are spoken or displayed in Braille, with the script language being just one of those features. I think that if we see Narrator being given the ability to accept custom scripts it may be taken more seriously by corporate users. I do agree that it’s gaining ground and is becoming an impressive screen reader.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 10:48 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days
That may be. So far, Narrator is much more limited, though it can do a lot more than it used to.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 8:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sat, Aug 13, 2022 at 09:09 PM, Gene wrote:
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.
-
Well, I'd say your wish is not going to be met, as Narrator is nipping at the heels of the other screen readers that run on Windows, though its market share right now is small. There is no doubt that Microsoft intends Narrator to be very serious competition for all the existing screen readers. But that is by no means any guarantee that it will take over the market, but it will definitely be making further inroads.
--Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
Gene, I actually do agree with most of what you’ve written. I would say, though, that the more a user knows about his/her screen reader the more they’ll be able to customize what they hear or read in Braille. You’re right in that you can get away with very little screen reader knowledge in order to navigate Web pages and perform basic editing of documents but the more you know about whatever screen reader you’re using the more you’ll be in control of what you’re reading. It also will help you to deal with Web sites or applications that may not be playing nice out of the box. The same can really be said about any application. I could choose to learn very little about Microsoft Word and with a small amount of knowledge I could perform basic editing tasks. However, if I chose to go beyond the basics I’ll have even more control over what I can do with my document, how I can alter it, present it and correct a variety of issues that I might find with it.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:56 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days
It depends on what you want to do with a screen-reader. A lot of people use two screen-readers. If you know Windows and Windows programs, that is the structures they use and how to work with them, you can use any screen-reader to do a
lot if you know a small number of commands such as read title bar, read current line, and its nice to know how to adjust the speech rate and set punctuation. Read to end is important to know.
Commands for browsing the Internet, that is navigation commands such as h for heading, n for skip blocks of links are quite standardized these days.
And you don't have to own JAWS to benefit from having two screen-readers available. You can use a JAWS demo for times when NVDA doesn't do something or do it well. Many people can use NVDA for pretty much anything.
I've used Window-eyes, NVDA, JAWS, System Access, and I've played with Narrator so I have lots of experience to say what I've said. If you know Windows basics and program structures, which are in many cases the same as Windows structures, menus, dialogs, and
in some programs and in some places in Windows ribbons, you can do a lot knowing little about any screen-reader.
It is an advantage to have more than one screen-reader.
For the majority of people, most of the learning done is the structures of Windows and Windows programs. The screen-reader is not a large part of what is learned. Depending on how you use programs, you would learn more or less about a screen-reader.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 8:24 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view, daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count the number of screen readers or other solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.
Mary
On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.
Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't realize that that is what they are advocating.
GeneOn 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote:Hello MaryI still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.I'm happy to hear it worked for you.All the best,DennisOn 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.Mary
That’s true. In addition, SuperNova from Dolphin is still being developed so that’s yet one more choice in screen readers. Then again I haven’t yet met one individual, at least in the U.S., who has admitted to using it. It’s something I’ve been meaning to try but with the level of accessibility that I already have with Narrator, JAWS and NVDA I just didn’t have enough motivation.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:30 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days
I'd say some of this is not quite accurate. For one, you can buy Jaws for a hundred a year, and keep getting updates. They have switched to the subscription model Microsoft uses. As long as you pay, you will keep getting updates.
On 8/13/2022 9:24 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view, daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count the number of screen readers or other solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.
Mary
On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.
Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't realize that that is what they are advocating.
GeneOn 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote:Hello MaryI still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.I'm happy to hear it worked for you.All the best,DennisOn 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.Mary
It does occur to me that Microsoft continues to add more magnification features in Windows for its low vision users. Yet I see no signs of Zoomtext or, for that matter, SuperNova slowing down.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:28 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days
On Sat, Aug 13, 2022 at 09:09 PM, Gene wrote:
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.
-
Well, I'd say your wish is not going to be met, as Narrator is nipping at the heels of the other screen readers that run on Windows, though its market share right now is small. There is no doubt that Microsoft intends Narrator to be very serious competition
for all the existing screen readers. But that is by no means any guarantee that it will take over the market, but it will definitely be making further inroads.
--
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
Also, nowing what I'm saying may encourage people to try another screen-reader and perhaps switch if they find it meets their needs, which they might not even have tried before, such as trying NVDA.
Gene
Gene, I actually do agree with most of what you’ve written. I would say, though, that the more a user knows about his/her screen reader the more they’ll be able to customize what they hear or read in Braille. You’re right in that you can get away with very little screen reader knowledge in order to navigate Web pages and perform basic editing of documents but the more you know about whatever screen reader you’re using the more you’ll be in control of what you’re reading. It also will help you to deal with Web sites or applications that may not be playing nice out of the box. The same can really be said about any application. I could choose to learn very little about Microsoft Word and with a small amount of knowledge I could perform basic editing tasks. However, if I chose to go beyond the basics I’ll have even more control over what I can do with my document, how I can alter it, present it and correct a variety of issues that I might find with it.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:56 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days
It depends on what you want to do with a screen-reader. A lot of people use two screen-readers. If you know Windows and Windows programs, that is the structures they use and how to work with them, you can use any screen-reader to do a lot if you know a small number of commands such as read title bar, read current line, and its nice to know how to adjust the speech rate and set punctuation. Read to end is important to know.
Commands for browsing the Internet, that is navigation commands such as h for heading, n for skip blocks of links are quite standardized these days.
And you don't have to own JAWS to benefit from having two screen-readers available. You can use a JAWS demo for times when NVDA doesn't do something or do it well. Many people can use NVDA for pretty much anything.
I've used Window-eyes, NVDA, JAWS, System Access, and I've played with Narrator so I have lots of experience to say what I've said. If you know Windows basics and program structures, which are in many cases the same as Windows structures, menus, dialogs, and in some programs and in some places in Windows ribbons, you can do a lot knowing little about any screen-reader.
It is an advantage to have more than one screen-reader.
For the majority of people, most of the learning done is the structures of Windows and Windows programs. The screen-reader is not a large part of what is learned. Depending on how you use programs, you would learn more or less about a screen-reader.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 8:24 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view, daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count the number of screen readers or other solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.
Mary
On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.
Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't realize that that is what they are advocating.
GeneOn 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote:Hello MaryI still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.I'm happy to hear it worked for you.All the best,DennisOn 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.Mary
Hello Gene,
I saw your post earlier today and resolved to send you an email
before the end of the day, which is now. Hopefully this is going
just to you. I chose reply as opposed to all or list so I am
crossing my fingers this is correct. First let me apologize for
not returning your call yet. In short, Sarah and I have been
swamped for the last 6 weeks or so. My daughter is starting
kindergarten 2 days from now, and getting this all set up has been
a nightmare, and it isn't really set up yet. I think I mentioned
before that she has been determined to be a highly gifted little
cutie, and wonderful as this is, it does introduce complications.
She is going to attend a magnet gifted school in Bel-Air which is
about 9 miles from us. To get her to school we are going to have
to use either Uber or Lift, both of which will cost about $60 per
day which we can't afford. We recently learned that the regional
transit system alternative for disabled people called Access, I
think it is something different in Chicago, has a program to
transport parents and their children to school. We thought our
problem had been solved, but not so quick. First they say the
program is already full and there is a waiting list of unspecified
length. Moreover the Access regions where Sterling's school is
located is different than the Access region where we live, even
though both regions are in Los Angeles and in the same LAUSD
school district. Presumably this Access transportation for blind
parents cannot cross between Access regions. Very Frustrating.
I also feel like I dropped the ball because we are fortunate
enough to live 6 miles from a school called Mirman which is one of
only a few private schools for highly gifted kids in the U.S.
Problem is we would have had to begin the application process
about this time last year including testing and so on, and we
hadn't done any testing at that time. Also it costs $35,000 a
year, though they do offer financial aid. Even more important,
they provide transportation. One of their Psychologists will be
testing Sterling 2 weeks from tomorrow, so maybe she can get in to
Mirman for first grade. For now though we have to get her to
kindergarten for the next 9 months.
The transportation thing is also a big security problem because
of all the crime in LA. We live in one of the four most exclusive
parts of LA and the crime is now as bad here as any other part of
LA. Along our street are RV's parked where people live, and they
set on lawn chairs outside their RV's in the grassy area between
the sidewalk and street. I don't know that these folks pose any
real threat because they are homeowners, albeit on wheels, , but
there are drugged out homeless people living all over the place or
so we understand. Two weeks ago our neighbor called my wife and
told her to keep Sterling off our patio, because she had just seen
a man walk by her patio which is adjacent to ours, looking crazy
or drugged out and carrying a large butcher knife in front of him.
Our building has a six foot fence around it, but apparently it is
easy to jump.
Also I don't trust Uber to drive Sarah and Sterling anywhere
safely. Many of the drivers are fine and pretty helpful, but this
can't be counted on. About a month ago Sarah took an Uber home
from the dentist, and she was paying attention to the various
turns of the car as a matter of course, just to know where she was
in the trip as all blind people do. After turning on what seemed
like it should have been our street, the driver slowed the car and
turned off the motor and just sat there. Sarah was confused by
what was going on because she knew they were not at our building
because he would have needed to drive to the end of our block to a
turn-around to be positioned on the correct side of our street.
Finally she asked the driver if she would be arriving soon, and he
said you're here. Sarah asked where are we stopped. He said by
your building. She asked where is the building and he said, right
there. Knowing this could not be correct, Sarah asked him if he
would walk her to the door of the building? He said no, I don't
provide social services. She took a chance, got out of the car and
crossed the street. She heard someone coming walking her dog, and
she was able to confirm she was actually at our building thank
God.
I gather our crime problem is nothing compared to yours in
Chicago. At the beginning of each week I usually see a headline
like 53 shot over the weekend in Lori Lightfoot's Chicago. This
always makes me sad both because I love Chicago, but I went to law
school with Lori Lightfoot and I really liked her. I don't know if
Chicago's problems are her fault, but she doesn't seem to be able
to get a handle on it.
As I remember, you are on the western edge of Rogers Park. Has
the shooting violence extended that far North? I hope not.
Well I have now finished my beer, so I guess I should be moving
along. I will definitely give you a call later this week for real.
It might even be during the day now that Sterling will be in
school. I can't yet completely imagine what our days will be like
without her here all the time. Makes me sad to think about it, but
I will definitely get more done.
Also remind me to get Charlene's phone number from you when we
talk. I'm very proud of her for getting into and completing
Columbia Law School so I want to call and tell her so. It's a very
unpleasant experience for everyone, and especially so when one is
blind. I'm not really surprised though because Charlene has
tenacity in spades, and that's what it takes.
Talk with you soon my friend.
D
8/13/2022 3:16 PM, Gene wrote:
An illustration of why you shouldn't have the attitude that this or that single program will be the only one you will use for this or that purpose.
I don't uninstall programs even if I usually use another one for the purpose the program serves. One day, there might be a reason to use the one I seldom use.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 5:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.
Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.
Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.
Mary