|
Brian's Mail list account
Yes indeed, I think Microsoft see accessibility as an insurance policy. IE if they do not test everything they make with other screenreaders, they can at least point to Narrator and say, well it works with that.
On magnification, for many years Dolphins magnification products were, in my view, vastly superior to Magic, Zoomtext and the rest. I think it was called Lunar back then. However they abandoned Hal and Lunar in favour of the name Supernova, which you could get various flavours of containing magnification and varying amounts of screenreader functionality.
Its now pretty good and yes it does have scripting and various access keys to emulate Jaws, but of course some functions are in fact totally different, so they cannot exactly be compared. Its got more traction in the UK and Europe, but is not cheap either. I think for screenreader functionality, NVDA knocks spots off it, but everyone does have a view, since usage needs vary as does sight.
Brian
--
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...> To: <chat@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 4:50 PM Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days On Sun, Aug 14, 2022 at 01:38 AM, David Goldfield wrote:
It does occur to me that Microsoft continues to add more magnification
features in Windows for its low vision users. Yet I see no signs of
Zoomtext or, for that matter, SuperNova slowing down.
- David, I don't know what, precisely, you believe this proves. Just as JAWS had many years of momentum and familiarity behind it, ensuring market dominance for a very long time (and I believe it still remains number one, though NVDA is now giving it a real run for its money), so does ZoomText. Having been first to market, and having an existing and loyal user base, will ensure your place at the table for a very long time even after competitors that are just as good, sometimes better, have come on the scene. And certain competitors that are just as good or better (arguably, but see Window Eyes as but one example) end up being bought out by another competitor and promptly dispatched with. The marketplace is complicated, to say the least, and those not first to market, and particularly when the "first to market" came to dominate it, have a long, slow road to acceptance, if they ever get there. But money and a certain kind of familiarity talk, too. And I suspect Microsoft will be getting a bit of a leg up simply because their accessibility solutions come with Windows and they've clearly indicated that they aren't messing around about these things anymore. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 *Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.* ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
|
|
|
On Sun, Aug 14, 2022 at 01:38 AM, David Goldfield wrote:
It does occur to me that Microsoft continues to add more magnification features in Windows for its low vision users. Yet I see no signs of Zoomtext or, for that matter, SuperNova slowing down.
- David, I don't know what, precisely, you believe this proves. Just as JAWS had many years of momentum and familiarity behind it, ensuring market dominance for a very long time (and I believe it still remains number one, though NVDA is now giving it a real run for its money), so does ZoomText. Having been first to market, and having an existing and loyal user base, will ensure your place at the table for a very long time even after competitors that are just as good, sometimes better, have come on the scene. And certain competitors that are just as good or better (arguably, but see Window Eyes as but one example) end up being bought out by another competitor and promptly dispatched with. The marketplace is complicated, to say the least, and those not first to market, and particularly when the "first to market" came to dominate it, have a long, slow road to acceptance, if they ever get there. But money and a certain kind of familiarity talk, too. And I suspect Microsoft will be getting a bit of a leg up simply because their accessibility solutions come with Windows and they've clearly indicated that they aren't messing around about these things anymore. --
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
|
|
|
I'm not sure how often I should state this because members on the
list may come and go.
My impression is that many screen-reader users don't realize what
I'm saying, though a lot of people on this list, I would expect to
know it.
Gene
On 8/14/2022 10:43 AM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
On Sun, Aug 14, 2022
at 02:27 AM, Gene wrote:
I agree, but my interest is in getting people to
realize that for a second screen-reader, which people may want
to use if their first doesn't do something, they can do a lot
knowing little about it so they will consider having a second
one available.
Also, nowing what I'm saying may encourage people to try another
screen-reader and perhaps switch if they find it meets their
needs, which they might not even have tried before, such as
trying NVDA.
-
I'm agreeing with you 100%, but if this is not common knowledge by
now, it never will be.
Since my very earliest days in the blind and low-vision technology
sphere, I was told that you have to have at least two web browsers
at the ready to use, and two screen readers at the ready to use
(if you could afford such, and these days with NVDA and Narrator,
anyone can afford such). And I started into this arena over a
decade ago. In this specific regard, not a blessed thing has
changed since then. The general principle applies, but for
differing reasons over time.
It's a fact that certain web sites work better with specific
browsers, there are not all that many of those, but they exist.
It's also clear that specific screen readers can and do work
better with a specific combination of website and web browser at
times, and with certain application programs.
If you want to be able to get around the problems in any one of
those situations, you have to be ready to jump to a secondary
choice to see how it works in context. And if the issue or issues
continue, you're getting good information for trouble reporting,
too.
--
Brian - Windows
10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Nothing in all the
world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and
conscientious stupidity.
~
Martin Luther King, Jr.
|
|
|
On Sun, Aug 14, 2022 at 02:27 AM, Gene wrote:
I agree, but my interest is in getting people to realize that for a second screen-reader, which people may want to use if their first doesn't do something, they can do a lot knowing little about it so they will consider having a second one available.
Also, nowing what I'm saying may encourage people to try another screen-reader and perhaps switch if they find it meets their needs, which they might not even have tried before, such as trying NVDA.
- I'm agreeing with you 100%, but if this is not common knowledge by now, it never will be. Since my very earliest days in the blind and low-vision technology sphere, I was told that you have to have at least two web browsers at the ready to use, and two screen readers at the ready to use (if you could afford such, and these days with NVDA and Narrator, anyone can afford such). And I started into this arena over a decade ago. In this specific regard, not a blessed thing has changed since then. The general principle applies, but for differing reasons over time. It's a fact that certain web sites work better with specific browsers, there are not all that many of those, but they exist. It's also clear that specific screen readers can and do work better with a specific combination of website and web browser at times, and with certain application programs. If you want to be able to get around the problems in any one of those situations, you have to be ready to jump to a secondary choice to see how it works in context. And if the issue or issues continue, you're getting good information for trouble reporting, too. --
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
|
|
|
Again, if you tell us what you find difficult, we can discuss it.
Browsing is browsing. Settings is organized differently and
bookmarks are somewhat different.
Gene
On 8/14/2022 5:26 AM, Brian's Mail list
account via groups.io wrote:
So why is it
that I have friends who took to Edge browser like a duck to
water, but I struggle with the interface, preferring Firefox most
of the time. However Edge works better in Google Meet as the
toggles for Mic. and camera get announced in Edge but not in
Firefox, it is also faster, but seldom is that an issue when most
machines since around 2014 have been well fast enough given the
ram and decent drive.
Brian
|
|
|
If you tell us what you find difficult about Windows 10, we can
discuss it. I and many others see little difference. There are
changes to the interface such as some settings being in different
places but in general, it is similar.
Gene
On 8/14/2022 5:16 AM, Brian's Mail list
account via groups.io wrote:
I'm with you on
learning curves, still trying to get my head acclimatised to
Windows 10 from 7, which I am still using a lot more.
Brian
|
|
|
Brian's Mail list account
I think though that due to Microsoft's security holes record, think of the mayhem one might be able to unleash if the same level of security problems was in a script language? I mean you can, I suppose wreak havoc with poweshell or even command prompt, but its something you have to choose to run, whereas a screenreader script would be silent, so to speak.
Brian
--
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Goldfield" <david.goldfield@...> To: <chat@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 6:23 AM Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days I think that one reason why Narrator won't gain much ground in the corporate sector is due to its current lack of customization. One benefit of JAWS is that it offers a large amount of options to configure how things are spoken or displayed in Braille, with the script language being just one of those features. I think that if we see Narrator being given the ability to accept custom scripts it may be taken more seriously by corporate users. I do agree that it's gaining ground and is becoming an impressive screen reader. David Goldfield, Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist [JAWS Certified, 2022]< https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification> NVDA Certified Expert< https://certification.nvaccess.org/> Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field. Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io<mailto:tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io> www.DavidGoldfield.org< http://www.DavidGoldfield.org> From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 10:48 PM To: chat@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days That may be. So far, Narrator is much more limited, though it can do a lot more than it used to. Gene On 8/13/2022 8:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote: On Sat, Aug 13, 2022 at 09:09 PM, Gene wrote: That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist. - Well, I'd say your wish is not going to be met, as Narrator is nipping at the heels of the other screen readers that run on Windows, though its market share right now is small. There is no doubt that Microsoft intends Narrator to be very serious competition for all the existing screen readers. But that is by no means any guarantee that it will take over the market, but it will definitely be making further inroads. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity. ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
|
|
|
Brian's Mail list account
So why is it that I have friends who took to Edge browser like a duck to water, but I struggle with the interface, preferring Firefox most of the time. However Edge works better in Google Meet as the toggles for Mic. and camera get announced in Edge but not in Firefox, it is also faster, but seldom is that an issue when most machines since around 2014 have been well fast enough given the ram and decent drive.
Brian
--
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Goldfield" <david.goldfield@...> To: <chat@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 6:30 AM Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days Gene, I actually do agree with most of what you’ve written. I would say, though, that the more a user knows about his/her screen reader the more they’ll be able to customize what they hear or read in Braille. You’re right in that you can get away with very little screen reader knowledge in order to navigate Web pages and perform basic editing of documents but the more you know about whatever screen reader you’re using the more you’ll be in control of what you’re reading. It also will help you to deal with Web sites or applications that may not be playing nice out of the box. The same can really be said about any application. I could choose to learn very little about Microsoft Word and with a small amount of knowledge I could perform basic editing tasks. However, if I chose to go beyond the basics I’ll have even more control over what I can do with my document, how I can alter it, present it and correct a variety of issues that I might find with it.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
[JAWS Certified, 2022]<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>
NVDA Certified Expert<https://certification.nvaccess.org/>
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io<mailto:tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io>
www.DavidGoldfield.org<http://www.DavidGoldfield.org>
From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:56 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days
It depends on what you want to do with a screen-reader. A lot of people use two screen-readers. If you know Windows and Windows programs, that is the structures they use and how to work with them, you can use any screen-reader to do a lot if you know a small number of commands such as read title bar, read current line, and its nice to know how to adjust the speech rate and set punctuation. Read to end is important to know.
Commands for browsing the Internet, that is navigation commands such as h for heading, n for skip blocks of links are quite standardized these days.
And you don't have to own JAWS to benefit from having two screen-readers available. You can use a JAWS demo for times when NVDA doesn't do something or do it well. Many people can use NVDA for pretty much anything.
I've used Window-eyes, NVDA, JAWS, System Access, and I've played with Narrator so I have lots of experience to say what I've said. If you know Windows basics and program structures, which are in many cases the same as Windows structures, menus, dialogs, and in some programs and in some places in Windows ribbons, you can do a lot knowing little about any screen-reader.
It is an advantage to have more than one screen-reader.
For the majority of people, most of the learning done is the structures of Windows and Windows programs. The screen-reader is not a large part of what is learned. Depending on how you use programs, you would learn more or less about a screen-reader.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 8:24 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view, daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count the number of screen readers or other solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.
Mary
On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.
Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't realize that that is what they are advocating.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?
On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...><mailto:dennis@...> wrote:
Hello Mary
I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.
I'm happy to hear it worked for you.
All the best,
Dennis
On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.
Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.
Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.
Mary
|
|
|
Brian's Mail list account
Yes the people wo do Guide Connect also still do several flavours of Supernova. In its full version it is like Jaws Fusion.
Its a little cheaper.
I have to say I used it for some time but I found their slowness to fix scripts a bit annoying when the software changed. If you were into it enough, you could write your own scripts, but I never quite got them to work reliably.
Brian
--
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: "David Goldfield" <david.goldfield@...> To: <chat@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 6:37 AM Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days That’s true. In addition, SuperNova<https://yourdolphin.com/SuperNova> from Dolphin is still being developed so that’s yet one more choice in screen readers. Then again I haven’t yet met one individual, at least in the U.S., who has admitted to using it. It’s something I’ve been meaning to try but with the level of accessibility that I already have with Narrator, JAWS and NVDA I just didn’t have enough motivation.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
[JAWS Certified, 2022]<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>
NVDA Certified Expert<https://certification.nvaccess.org/>
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io<mailto:tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io>
www.DavidGoldfield.org<http://www.DavidGoldfield.org>
From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Governor staten
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:30 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days
I'd say some of this is not quite accurate. For one, you can buy Jaws for a hundred a year, and keep getting updates. They have switched to the subscription model Microsoft uses. As long as you pay, you will keep getting updates.
________________________________
On 8/13/2022 9:24 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view, daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count the number of screen readers or other solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.
Mary
On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.
Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't realize that that is what they are advocating.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?
On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...><mailto:dennis@...> wrote:
Hello Mary
I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.
I'm happy to hear it worked for you.
All the best,
Dennis
On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.
Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.
Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.
Mary
|
|
|
Brian's Mail list account
Not the Case in the UK. You have to pay for the first one quite a large sum then pay for the yearly updates.
UK.
Brian
--
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: "Governor staten" <govsta@...> To: <chat@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 2:30 AM Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days I'd say some of this is not quite accurate. For one, you can buy Jaws
for a hundred a year, and keep getting updates. They have switched to
the subscription model Microsoft uses. As long as you pay, you will keep
getting updates.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
On 8/13/2022 9:24 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them
costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use
multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that
privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view,
daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot
about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of
diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually
remember. I can't count the number of screen readers or other
solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after
all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.
Mary
On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can
say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main
operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In
Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally
use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among
screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with
Apple.
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft
to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with
JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those
screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.
Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a
monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they
don't realize that that is what they are advocating.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?
On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark<dennis@...> wrote:
Hello Mary
I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.
I'm happy to hear it worked for you.
All the best,
Dennis
On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.
Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.
Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.
Mary
|
|
|
Brian's Mail list account
I'm with you on learning curves, still trying to get my head acclimatised to Windows 10 from 7, which I am still using a lot more.
Brian
--
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Otten" <maryotten@...> To: <chat@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 2:24 AM Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them
costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use
multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that
privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view, daunting
if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that
one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns
regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count
the number of screen readers or other solutions I've used over the past
decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning
curves.
Mary
On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say
that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main
operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In
Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally use
doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among
screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with
Apple.
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft
to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with
JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those
screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.
Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a
monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they
don't realize that that is what they are advocating.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?
On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark<dennis@...> wrote:
Hello Mary
I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.
I'm happy to hear it worked for you.
All the best,
Dennis
On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.
Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.
Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.
Mary
|
|
|
Brian's Mail list account
Yes well, its a catch 22 situation. I do feel however that until and if they get a scripting language for Narrator, there is no competition. The fact that you can switch to Narrator and the jaws demo when you need to is a bonus at the moment.
I do however want to bring up another issue.
Of late I'm encountering a lot of people using software like Guide Connect. Not cheap and not a screen reader, its basically another shell over windows with a subset of applications to do very popular stuff.
It does a reasonable job, but the problem is if anything does go wrong. then no screenreader apart from Narrator is there. Also as I found out the other day, Guide Connect does not turn off a running screenreader when it launches, but silences it and also has issues due to clashing control keys, so that means you have to shut it down before launching Guide.
Brian
--
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...> To: <chat@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 2:09 AM Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say
that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating
system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In Windows, you can
try other screen-readers if the one you generally use doesn't do
something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader
developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to
develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and
NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers,
there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.
Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a
monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't
realize that that is what they are advocating.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?
On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote:
Hello Mary
I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.
I'm happy to hear it worked for you.
All the best,
Dennis
On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.
Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.
Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.
Mary
|
|
|
I'm glad to hear from you. Unfortunately, as you know by now, your
message went to the list. I'll write you privately but for now,
I'll keep this message relevant to the list and to you.
Between the message and the footer, there is a separator. The
command to move to the separator in NVDA is the letter s when you
are using Browse Mode, which you probably are when reading mail.
If you move to the separator and continue down, you will see a link
that says Reply To Sender.
If you follow it, a message will open to the sender's address and
you can write privately.
Since I don't know what e-mail program you are using, I won't give
other program specific instructions to write privately. Those
instructions would be good to know for other list serves but this
will serve for most mail from Groups.io. I believe that now and
then, for reasons I don't know the reply To Sender link isn't
present.
I look forward to hearing from you.
Gene
|
|
|
Hello Gene,
I saw your post earlier today and resolved to send you an email
before the end of the day, which is now. Hopefully this is going
just to you. I chose reply as opposed to all or list so I am
crossing my fingers this is correct. First let me apologize for
not returning your call yet. In short, Sarah and I have been
swamped for the last 6 weeks or so. My daughter is starting
kindergarten 2 days from now, and getting this all set up has been
a nightmare, and it isn't really set up yet. I think I mentioned
before that she has been determined to be a highly gifted little
cutie, and wonderful as this is, it does introduce complications.
She is going to attend a magnet gifted school in Bel-Air which is
about 9 miles from us. To get her to school we are going to have
to use either Uber or Lift, both of which will cost about $60 per
day which we can't afford. We recently learned that the regional
transit system alternative for disabled people called Access, I
think it is something different in Chicago, has a program to
transport parents and their children to school. We thought our
problem had been solved, but not so quick. First they say the
program is already full and there is a waiting list of unspecified
length. Moreover the Access regions where Sterling's school is
located is different than the Access region where we live, even
though both regions are in Los Angeles and in the same LAUSD
school district. Presumably this Access transportation for blind
parents cannot cross between Access regions. Very Frustrating.
I also feel like I dropped the ball because we are fortunate
enough to live 6 miles from a school called Mirman which is one of
only a few private schools for highly gifted kids in the U.S.
Problem is we would have had to begin the application process
about this time last year including testing and so on, and we
hadn't done any testing at that time. Also it costs $35,000 a
year, though they do offer financial aid. Even more important,
they provide transportation. One of their Psychologists will be
testing Sterling 2 weeks from tomorrow, so maybe she can get in to
Mirman for first grade. For now though we have to get her to
kindergarten for the next 9 months.
The transportation thing is also a big security problem because
of all the crime in LA. We live in one of the four most exclusive
parts of LA and the crime is now as bad here as any other part of
LA. Along our street are RV's parked where people live, and they
set on lawn chairs outside their RV's in the grassy area between
the sidewalk and street. I don't know that these folks pose any
real threat because they are homeowners, albeit on wheels, , but
there are drugged out homeless people living all over the place or
so we understand. Two weeks ago our neighbor called my wife and
told her to keep Sterling off our patio, because she had just seen
a man walk by her patio which is adjacent to ours, looking crazy
or drugged out and carrying a large butcher knife in front of him.
Our building has a six foot fence around it, but apparently it is
easy to jump.
Also I don't trust Uber to drive Sarah and Sterling anywhere
safely. Many of the drivers are fine and pretty helpful, but this
can't be counted on. About a month ago Sarah took an Uber home
from the dentist, and she was paying attention to the various
turns of the car as a matter of course, just to know where she was
in the trip as all blind people do. After turning on what seemed
like it should have been our street, the driver slowed the car and
turned off the motor and just sat there. Sarah was confused by
what was going on because she knew they were not at our building
because he would have needed to drive to the end of our block to a
turn-around to be positioned on the correct side of our street.
Finally she asked the driver if she would be arriving soon, and he
said you're here. Sarah asked where are we stopped. He said by
your building. She asked where is the building and he said, right
there. Knowing this could not be correct, Sarah asked him if he
would walk her to the door of the building? He said no, I don't
provide social services. She took a chance, got out of the car and
crossed the street. She heard someone coming walking her dog, and
she was able to confirm she was actually at our building thank
God.
I gather our crime problem is nothing compared to yours in
Chicago. At the beginning of each week I usually see a headline
like 53 shot over the weekend in Lori Lightfoot's Chicago. This
always makes me sad both because I love Chicago, but I went to law
school with Lori Lightfoot and I really liked her. I don't know if
Chicago's problems are her fault, but she doesn't seem to be able
to get a handle on it.
As I remember, you are on the western edge of Rogers Park. Has
the shooting violence extended that far North? I hope not.
Well I have now finished my beer, so I guess I should be moving
along. I will definitely give you a call later this week for real.
It might even be during the day now that Sterling will be in
school. I can't yet completely imagine what our days will be like
without her here all the time. Makes me sad to think about it, but
I will definitely get more done.
Also remind me to get Charlene's phone number from you when we
talk. I'm very proud of her for getting into and completing
Columbia Law School so I want to call and tell her so. It's a very
unpleasant experience for everyone, and especially so when one is
blind. I'm not really surprised though because Charlene has
tenacity in spades, and that's what it takes.
Talk with you soon my friend.
D
8/13/2022 3:16 PM, Gene wrote:
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
An illustration of why you shouldn't have the attitude that this
or that single program will be the only one you will use for this
or that purpose.
I don't uninstall programs even if I usually use another one for
the purpose the program serves. One day, there might be a reason
to use the one I seldom use.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 5:04 PM, Mary Otten
wrote:
For
anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you
don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.
Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I
imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually
does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out
absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short,
whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect
ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to
understand the text.
Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for
some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random
letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it
makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even
though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.
Mary
|
|
|
I agree, but my interest is in getting people to realize that for a
second screen-reader, which people may want to use if their first
doesn't do something, they can do a lot knowing little about it so
they will consider having a second one available.
Also, nowing what I'm saying may encourage people to try another
screen-reader and perhaps switch if they find it meets their needs,
which they might not even have tried before, such as trying NVDA.
Gene
On 8/14/2022 12:30 AM, David Goldfield
wrote:
Gene, I actually do agree with most of what
you’ve written. I would say, though, that the more a user
knows about his/her screen reader the more they’ll be able to
customize what they hear or read in Braille. You’re right in
that you can get away with very little screen reader knowledge
in order to navigate Web pages and perform basic editing of
documents but the more you know about whatever screen reader
you’re using the more you’ll be in control of what you’re
reading. It also will help you to deal with Web sites or
applications that may not be playing nice out of the box. The
same can really be said about any application. I could choose
to learn very little about Microsoft Word and with a small
amount of knowledge I could perform basic editing tasks.
However, if I chose to go beyond the basics I’ll have even
more control over what I can do with my document, how I can
alter it, present it and correct a variety of issues that I
might find with it.
It depends on what you want to do with a
screen-reader. A lot of people use two screen-readers. If
you know Windows and Windows programs, that is the structures
they use and how to work with them, you can use any
screen-reader to do a lot if you know a small number of
commands such as read title bar, read current line, and its
nice to know how to adjust the speech rate and set
punctuation. Read to end is important to know.
Commands for browsing the Internet, that is navigation
commands such as h for heading, n for skip blocks of links are
quite standardized these days.
And you don't have to own JAWS to benefit from having two
screen-readers available. You can use a JAWS demo for times
when NVDA doesn't do something or do it well. Many people can
use NVDA for pretty much anything.
I've used Window-eyes, NVDA, JAWS, System Access, and I've
played with Narrator so I have lots of experience to say what
I've said. If you know Windows basics and program structures,
which are in many cases the same as Windows structures, menus,
dialogs, and in some programs and in some places in Windows
ribbons, you can do a lot knowing little about any
screen-reader.
It is an advantage to have more than one screen-reader.
For the majority of people, most of the learning done is the
structures of Windows and Windows programs. The screen-reader
is not a large part of what is learned. Depending on how you
use programs, you would learn more or less about a
screen-reader.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 8:24 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and
one of them costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So
you can't exactly use multiple screen readers if you don't
want to pay hansomely for that privilege, and the learning
curve to learn JAWS is, in my view, daunting if you're
starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that
one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing
returns regarding just how many things you can actually
remember. I can't count the number of screen readers or
other solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do
know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning
curves.
Mary
On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't use a Mac and I can't comment
on the interface. But I can say that I wouldn't want to
use, as my only, and probably my main operating system,
one that limits me to one screen-reader. In Windows, you
can try other screen-readers if the one you generally use
doesn't do something well. and there is no competition
among screen-reader developers to add features and improve
performance with Apple.
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want
Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable
of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good
enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no
more choice and a monopoly will exist.
Interesting how so many people who complain about
Microsoft being a monopoly want it to become a
screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't realize that
that is what they are advocating.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten
wrote:
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?
On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote:
Hello Mary
I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.
I'm happy to hear it worked for you.
All the best,
Dennis
On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.
Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.
Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.
Mary
|
|
|
It does occur to me that Microsoft continues to add more magnification features in Windows for its low vision users. Yet I see no signs of Zoomtext or, for that matter, SuperNova slowing down.
David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
NVDA Certified Expert
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io
www.DavidGoldfield.org
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:28 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days
On Sat, Aug 13, 2022 at 09:09 PM, Gene wrote:
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more
choice and a monopoly will exist.
-
Well, I'd say your wish is not going to be met, as Narrator is nipping at the heels of the other screen readers that run on Windows, though its market share right now is small. There is no doubt that Microsoft intends Narrator to be very serious competition
for all the existing screen readers. But that is by no means any guarantee that it will take over the market, but it will definitely be making further inroads.
--
Brian - Windows
10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
|
|
|
That’s true. In addition,
SuperNova from Dolphin is still being developed so that’s yet one more choice in screen readers. Then again I haven’t yet met one individual, at least in the U.S., who has admitted to using it. It’s something I’ve been meaning to try but with the level
of accessibility that I already have with Narrator, JAWS and NVDA I just didn’t have enough motivation.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Governor staten
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:30 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days
I'd say some of this is not quite accurate. For one, you can buy Jaws for a hundred a year, and keep getting updates. They have switched to the subscription model Microsoft uses. As long as you pay, you will keep getting updates.
On 8/13/2022 9:24 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is,
in my view, daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count the number of screen readers
or other solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.
Mary
On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In Windows, you can try other screen-readers
if the one you generally use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly
will exist.
Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't realize that that is what they are advocating.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?
On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote:
Hello Mary
I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.
I'm happy to hear it worked for you.
All the best,
Dennis
On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.
Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.
Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.
Mary
|
|
|
Gene, I actually do agree with most of what you’ve written. I would say, though, that the more a user knows about his/her screen reader the more they’ll be able to customize what they hear or read in Braille. You’re right in that you can
get away with very little screen reader knowledge in order to navigate Web pages and perform basic editing of documents but the more you know about whatever screen reader you’re using the more you’ll be in control of what you’re reading. It also will help
you to deal with Web sites or applications that may not be playing nice out of the box. The same can really be said about any application. I could choose to learn very little about Microsoft Word and with a small amount of knowledge I could perform basic editing
tasks. However, if I chose to go beyond the basics I’ll have even more control over what I can do with my document, how I can alter it, present it and correct a variety of issues that I might find with it.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:56 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days
It depends on what you want to do with a screen-reader. A lot of people use two screen-readers. If you know Windows and Windows programs, that is the structures they use and how to work with them, you can use any screen-reader to do a
lot if you know a small number of commands such as read title bar, read current line, and its nice to know how to adjust the speech rate and set punctuation. Read to end is important to know.
Commands for browsing the Internet, that is navigation commands such as h for heading, n for skip blocks of links are quite standardized these days.
And you don't have to own JAWS to benefit from having two screen-readers available. You can use a JAWS demo for times when NVDA doesn't do something or do it well. Many people can use NVDA for pretty much anything.
I've used Window-eyes, NVDA, JAWS, System Access, and I've played with Narrator so I have lots of experience to say what I've said. If you know Windows basics and program structures, which are in many cases the same as Windows structures, menus, dialogs, and
in some programs and in some places in Windows ribbons, you can do a lot knowing little about any screen-reader.
It is an advantage to have more than one screen-reader.
For the majority of people, most of the learning done is the structures of Windows and Windows programs. The screen-reader is not a large part of what is learned. Depending on how you use programs, you would learn more or less about a screen-reader.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 8:24 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is,
in my view, daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count the number of screen readers
or other solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.
Mary
On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In Windows, you can try other screen-readers
if the one you generally use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly
will exist.
Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't realize that that is what they are advocating.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?
On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote:
Hello Mary
I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.
I'm happy to hear it worked for you.
All the best,
Dennis
On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.
Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.
Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.
Mary
|
|
|
I think that one reason why Narrator won’t gain much ground in the corporate sector is due to its current lack of customization. One benefit of JAWS is that it offers a large amount of options to configure how things are spoken or displayed
in Braille, with the script language being just one of those features. I think that if we see Narrator being given the ability to accept custom scripts it may be taken more seriously by corporate users. I do agree that it’s gaining ground and is becoming an
impressive screen reader.
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 10:48 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days
That may be. So far, Narrator is much more limited, though it can do a lot more than it used to.
Gene
On 8/13/2022 8:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sat, Aug 13, 2022 at 09:09 PM, Gene wrote:
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more
choice and a monopoly will exist.
-
Well, I'd say your wish is not going to be met, as Narrator is nipping at the heels of the other screen readers that run on Windows, though its market share right now is small. There is no doubt that Microsoft intends Narrator to be very serious competition
for all the existing screen readers. But that is by no means any guarantee that it will take over the market, but it will definitely be making further inroads.
--
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
|
|
|
Hi Mary,
I do still scan in books and many documents. I use a Fujitsu combination flatbed scanner with a built in document feeder. I think I bought it in 2012. It is very fast such that when it is feeding through pages, it feeds so quickly there is almost no noticeable delay between pages. I can knock off a book very quickly.
I usually pull PDF files into Kurzweil to read, though I can also use ABBYY Finereader for the same purpose. To create PDF files I pull non PDF files into ABBYY and then save to PDF.
I remember that we were both on the Kurzweil Beta testing team back in the good ole days. Are you still in contact with Stephen? I haven't talked with him since he left Kurzweil.
With regard to Windows I still use Windows 10.
Its wonderful to see you posting here and I am happy to see you are still doing well.
All the best,
Dennis
toggle quoted message
Show quoted text
On 8/13/2022 5:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote: Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?
On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote:
Hello Mary
I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.
I'm happy to hear it worked for you.
All the best,
Dennis
On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.
Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.
Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.
Mary
|
|
|
