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k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days

Brian's Mail list account
 

Yes indeed, I think Microsoft see accessibility as an insurance policy. IE if they do not test everything they make with other screenreaders, they can at least point to Narrator and say, well it works with that.
On magnification, for many years Dolphins magnification products were, in my view, vastly superior to Magic, Zoomtext and the rest. I think it was called Lunar back then. However they abandoned Hal and Lunar in favour of the name Supernova, which you could get various flavours of containing magnification and varying amounts of screenreader functionality.
Its now pretty good and yes it does have scripting and various access keys to emulate Jaws, but of course some functions are in fact totally different, so they cannot exactly be compared. Its got more traction in the UK and Europe, but is not cheap either. I think for screenreader functionality, NVDA knocks spots off it, but everyone does have a view, since usage needs vary as does sight.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days


On Sun, Aug 14, 2022 at 01:38 AM, David Goldfield wrote:


It does occur to me that Microsoft continues to add more magnification
features in Windows for its low vision users. Yet I see no signs of
Zoomtext or, for that matter, SuperNova slowing down.
-
David,

I don't know what, precisely, you believe this proves. Just as JAWS had many years of momentum and familiarity behind it, ensuring market dominance for a very long time (and I believe it still remains number one, though NVDA is now giving it a real run for its money), so does ZoomText.

Having been first to market, and having an existing and loyal user base, will ensure your place at the table for a very long time even after competitors that are just as good, sometimes better, have come on the scene. And certain competitors that are just as good or better (arguably, but see Window Eyes as but one example) end up being bought out by another competitor and promptly dispatched with.

The marketplace is complicated, to say the least, and those not first to market, and particularly when the "first to market" came to dominate it, have a long, slow road to acceptance, if they ever get there.

But money and a certain kind of familiarity talk, too. And I suspect Microsoft will be getting a bit of a leg up simply because their accessibility solutions come with Windows and they've clearly indicated that they aren't messing around about these things anymore.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

*Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.*

~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
Brian Vogel
 

On Sun, Aug 14, 2022 at 01:38 AM, David Goldfield wrote:
It does occur to me that Microsoft continues to add more magnification features in Windows for its low vision users. Yet I see no signs of Zoomtext or, for that matter, SuperNova slowing down.
-
David,

I don't know what, precisely, you believe this proves.  Just as JAWS had many years of momentum and familiarity behind it, ensuring market dominance for a very long time (and I believe it still remains number one, though NVDA is now giving it a real run for its money), so does ZoomText.

Having been first to market, and having an existing and loyal user base, will ensure your place at the table for a very long time even after competitors that are just as good, sometimes better, have come on the scene.  And certain competitors that are just as good or better (arguably, but see Window Eyes as but one example) end up being bought out by another competitor and promptly dispatched with.

The marketplace is complicated, to say the least, and those not first to market, and particularly when the "first to market" came to dominate it, have a long, slow road to acceptance, if they ever get there.

But money and a certain kind of familiarity talk, too.  And I suspect Microsoft will be getting a bit of a leg up simply because their accessibility solutions come with Windows and they've clearly indicated that they aren't messing around about these things anymore.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

   ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
Gene
 

I'm not sure how often I should state this because members on the list may come and go. 

My impression is that many screen-reader users don't realize what I'm saying, though a lot of people on this list, I would expect to know it.

Gene

On 8/14/2022 10:43 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Sun, Aug 14, 2022 at 02:27 AM, Gene wrote:
I agree, but my interest is in getting people to realize that for a second screen-reader, which people may want to use if their first doesn't do something, they can do a lot knowing little about it so they will consider having a second one available.

Also, nowing what I'm saying may encourage people to try another screen-reader  and perhaps switch if they find it meets their needs, which they might not even have tried before, such as trying NVDA.
-
I'm agreeing with you 100%, but if this is not common knowledge by now, it never will be.

Since my very earliest days in the blind and low-vision technology sphere, I was told that you have to have at least two web browsers at the ready to use, and two screen readers at the ready to use (if you could afford such, and these days with NVDA and Narrator, anyone can afford such). And I started into this arena over a decade ago.  In this specific regard, not a blessed thing has changed since then.  The general principle applies, but for differing reasons over time.

It's a fact that certain web sites work better with specific browsers, there are not all that many of those, but they exist.  It's also clear that specific screen readers can and do work better with a specific combination of website and web browser at times, and with certain application programs.

If you want to be able to get around the problems in any one of those situations, you have to be ready to jump to a secondary choice to see how it works in context.  And if the issue or issues continue, you're getting good information for trouble reporting, too.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

   ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
Brian Vogel
 

On Sun, Aug 14, 2022 at 02:27 AM, Gene wrote:
I agree, but my interest is in getting people to realize that for a second screen-reader, which people may want to use if their first doesn't do something, they can do a lot knowing little about it so they will consider having a second one available.

Also, nowing what I'm saying may encourage people to try another screen-reader  and perhaps switch if they find it meets their needs, which they might not even have tried before, such as trying NVDA.
-
I'm agreeing with you 100%, but if this is not common knowledge by now, it never will be.

Since my very earliest days in the blind and low-vision technology sphere, I was told that you have to have at least two web browsers at the ready to use, and two screen readers at the ready to use (if you could afford such, and these days with NVDA and Narrator, anyone can afford such). And I started into this arena over a decade ago.  In this specific regard, not a blessed thing has changed since then.  The general principle applies, but for differing reasons over time.

It's a fact that certain web sites work better with specific browsers, there are not all that many of those, but they exist.  It's also clear that specific screen readers can and do work better with a specific combination of website and web browser at times, and with certain application programs.

If you want to be able to get around the problems in any one of those situations, you have to be ready to jump to a secondary choice to see how it works in context.  And if the issue or issues continue, you're getting good information for trouble reporting, too.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

   ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
Gene
 

Again, if you tell us what you find difficult, we can discuss it.  Browsing is browsing.  Settings is organized differently and bookmarks are somewhat different. 

Gene

On 8/14/2022 5:26 AM, Brian's Mail list account via groups.io wrote:

So why is it that I have friends who took to Edge browser like  a duck to water, but I struggle with the interface, preferring Firefox most of the time. However Edge works better in Google Meet as the toggles for Mic. and camera get announced in Edge but not in Firefox, it is also faster, but seldom is that an issue when most machines since around 2014 have been well fast enough given the ram and decent drive.
Brian


Gene
 

If you tell us what you find difficult about Windows 10, we can discuss it.  I and many others see little difference.  There are changes to the interface such as some settings being in different places but in general, it is similar.

Gene

On 8/14/2022 5:16 AM, Brian's Mail list account via groups.io wrote:

I'm with you on learning curves, still trying to get my head acclimatised to Windows 10 from 7, which I am still using a lot more.
Brian


Brian's Mail list account
 

I think though that due to Microsoft's security holes record, think of the mayhem one might be able to unleash if the same level of security problems was in a script language? I mean you can, I suppose wreak havoc with poweshell or even command prompt, but its something you have to choose to run, whereas a screenreader script would be silent, so to speak.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "David Goldfield" <david.goldfield@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 6:23 AM
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days


I think that one reason why Narrator won't gain much ground in the corporate sector is due to its current lack of customization. One benefit of JAWS is that it offers a large amount of options to configure how things are spoken or displayed in Braille, with the script language being just one of those features. I think that if we see Narrator being given the ability to accept custom scripts it may be taken more seriously by corporate users. I do agree that it's gaining ground and is becoming an impressive screen reader.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
[JAWS Certified, 2022]<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>
NVDA Certified Expert<https://certification.nvaccess.org/>

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.
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www.DavidGoldfield.org<http://www.DavidGoldfield.org>

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 10:48 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days

That may be. So far, Narrator is much more limited, though it can do a lot more than it used to.

Gene
On 8/13/2022 8:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sat, Aug 13, 2022 at 09:09 PM, Gene wrote:
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.
-
Well, I'd say your wish is not going to be met, as Narrator is nipping at the heels of the other screen readers that run on Windows, though its market share right now is small. There is no doubt that Microsoft intends Narrator to be very serious competition for all the existing screen readers. But that is by no means any guarantee that it will take over the market, but it will definitely be making further inroads.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
Brian's Mail list account
 

So why is it that I have friends who took to Edge browser like a duck to water, but I struggle with the interface, preferring Firefox most of the time. However Edge works better in Google Meet as the toggles for Mic. and camera get announced in Edge but not in Firefox, it is also faster, but seldom is that an issue when most machines since around 2014 have been well fast enough given the ram and decent drive.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "David Goldfield" <david.goldfield@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 6:30 AM
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days


Gene, I actually do agree with most of what you’ve written. I would say, though, that the more a user knows about his/her screen reader the more they’ll be able to customize what they hear or read in Braille. You’re right in that you can get away with very little screen reader knowledge in order to navigate Web pages and perform basic editing of documents but the more you know about whatever screen reader you’re using the more you’ll be in control of what you’re reading. It also will help you to deal with Web sites or applications that may not be playing nice out of the box. The same can really be said about any application. I could choose to learn very little about Microsoft Word and with a small amount of knowledge I could perform basic editing tasks. However, if I chose to go beyond the basics I’ll have even more control over what I can do with my document, how I can alter it, present it and correct a variety of issues that I might find with it.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
[JAWS Certified, 2022]<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>
NVDA Certified Expert<https://certification.nvaccess.org/>

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io<mailto:tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io>
www.DavidGoldfield.org<http://www.DavidGoldfield.org>

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:56 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days

It depends on what you want to do with a screen-reader. A lot of people use two screen-readers. If you know Windows and Windows programs, that is the structures they use and how to work with them, you can use any screen-reader to do a lot if you know a small number of commands such as read title bar, read current line, and its nice to know how to adjust the speech rate and set punctuation. Read to end is important to know.

Commands for browsing the Internet, that is navigation commands such as h for heading, n for skip blocks of links are quite standardized these days.

And you don't have to own JAWS to benefit from having two screen-readers available. You can use a JAWS demo for times when NVDA doesn't do something or do it well. Many people can use NVDA for pretty much anything.

I've used Window-eyes, NVDA, JAWS, System Access, and I've played with Narrator so I have lots of experience to say what I've said. If you know Windows basics and program structures, which are in many cases the same as Windows structures, menus, dialogs, and in some programs and in some places in Windows ribbons, you can do a lot knowing little about any screen-reader.

It is an advantage to have more than one screen-reader.

For the majority of people, most of the learning done is the structures of Windows and Windows programs. The screen-reader is not a large part of what is learned. Depending on how you use programs, you would learn more or less about a screen-reader.

Gene

On 8/13/2022 8:24 PM, Mary Otten wrote:


Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view, daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count the number of screen readers or other solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.



Mary


On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.

That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.

Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't realize that that is what they are advocating.

Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?

On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...><mailto:dennis@...> wrote:



Hello Mary



I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.





I'm happy to hear it worked for you.



All the best,



Dennis





On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.





Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.





Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.





Mary
Brian's Mail list account
 

Yes the people wo do Guide Connect also still do several flavours of Supernova. In its full version it is like Jaws Fusion.
Its a little cheaper.
I have to say I used it for some time but I found their slowness to fix scripts a bit annoying when the software changed. If you were into it enough, you could write your own scripts, but I never quite got them to work reliably.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "David Goldfield" <david.goldfield@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 6:37 AM
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days


That’s true. In addition, SuperNova<https://yourdolphin.com/SuperNova> from Dolphin is still being developed so that’s yet one more choice in screen readers. Then again I haven’t yet met one individual, at least in the U.S., who has admitted to using it. It’s something I’ve been meaning to try but with the level of accessibility that I already have with Narrator, JAWS and NVDA I just didn’t have enough motivation.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
[JAWS Certified, 2022]<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>
NVDA Certified Expert<https://certification.nvaccess.org/>

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io<mailto:tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io>
www.DavidGoldfield.org<http://www.DavidGoldfield.org>

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Governor staten
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:30 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days


I'd say some of this is not quite accurate. For one, you can buy Jaws for a hundred a year, and keep getting updates. They have switched to the subscription model Microsoft uses. As long as you pay, you will keep getting updates.





________________________________


On 8/13/2022 9:24 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view, daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count the number of screen readers or other solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.



Mary


On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.

That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.

Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't realize that that is what they are advocating.

Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?

On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...><mailto:dennis@...> wrote:



Hello Mary



I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.





I'm happy to hear it worked for you.



All the best,



Dennis





On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.





Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.





Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.





Mary
Brian's Mail list account
 

Not the Case in the UK. You have to pay for the first one quite a large sum then pay for the yearly updates.
UK.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Governor staten" <govsta@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 2:30 AM
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days


I'd say some of this is not quite accurate. For one, you can buy Jaws
for a hundred a year, and keep getting updates. They have switched to
the subscription model Microsoft uses. As long as you pay, you will keep
getting updates.



------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 8/13/2022 9:24 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them
costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use
multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that
privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view,
daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot
about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of
diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually
remember. I can't count the number of screen readers or other
solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after
all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.


Mary


On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can
say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main
operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In
Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally
use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among
screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with
Apple.

That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft
to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with
JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those
screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.

Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a
monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they
don't realize that that is what they are advocating.

Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?
On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark<dennis@...> wrote:

Hello Mary

I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.


I'm happy to hear it worked for you.

All the best,

Dennis


On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.


Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.


Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.


Mary
Brian's Mail list account
 

I'm with you on learning curves, still trying to get my head acclimatised to Windows 10 from 7, which I am still using a lot more.
Brian

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Please address personal E-mail to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Otten" <maryotten@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 2:24 AM
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days


Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them
costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use
multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that
privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view, daunting
if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that
one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns
regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count
the number of screen readers or other solutions I've used over the past
decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning
curves.


Mary


On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say
that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main
operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In
Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally use
doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among
screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with
Apple.

That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft
to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with
JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those
screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.

Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a
monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they
don't realize that that is what they are advocating.

Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?
On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark<dennis@...> wrote:

Hello Mary

I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.


I'm happy to hear it worked for you.

All the best,

Dennis


On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.


Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.


Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.


Mary
Brian's Mail list account
 

Yes well, its a catch 22 situation. I do feel however that until and if they get a scripting language for Narrator, there is no competition. The fact that you can switch to Narrator and the jaws demo when you need to is a bonus at the moment.

I do however want to bring up another issue.
Of late I'm encountering a lot of people using software like Guide Connect. Not cheap and not a screen reader, its basically another shell over windows with a subset of applications to do very popular stuff.
It does a reasonable job, but the problem is if anything does go wrong. then no screenreader apart from Narrator is there. Also as I found out the other day, Guide Connect does not turn off a running screenreader when it launches, but silences it and also has issues due to clashing control keys, so that means you have to shut it down before launching Guide.
Brian

--
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Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 2:09 AM
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days


I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say
that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating
system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In Windows, you can
try other screen-readers if the one you generally use doesn't do
something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader
developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.

That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to
develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and
NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers,
there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.

Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a
monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't
realize that that is what they are advocating.

Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?
On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote:

Hello Mary

I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.


I'm happy to hear it worked for you.

All the best,

Dennis


On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.


Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.


Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.


Mary
Gene
 

I'm glad to hear from you.  Unfortunately, as you know by now, your message went to the list.  I'll write you privately but for now, I'll keep this message relevant to the list and to you.
Between the message and the footer, there is a separator.  The command to move to the separator in NVDA is the letter s when you are using Browse Mode, which you probably are when reading mail.
If you move to the separator and continue down, you will see a link that says Reply To Sender.

If you follow it, a message will open  to the sender's address and you can write privately.

Since I don't know what e-mail program you are using, I won't give other program specific instructions to write privately.  Those instructions would be good to know for other list serves but this will serve for most mail from Groups.io.  I believe that now and then, for reasons I don't know the reply To Sender link isn't present.

I look forward to hearing from you.

Gene
Dennis Clark
 

Hello Gene,

I saw your post earlier today and resolved to send you an email before the end of the day, which is now. Hopefully this is going just to you. I chose reply as opposed to all or list so I am crossing my fingers this is correct. First let me apologize for not returning your call yet. In short, Sarah and I have been swamped for the last 6 weeks or so. My daughter is starting kindergarten 2 days from now, and getting this all set up has been a nightmare, and it isn't really set up yet. I think I mentioned before that she has been determined to be a highly gifted little cutie, and wonderful as this is, it does introduce complications. She is going to attend a magnet gifted school in Bel-Air which is about 9 miles from us. To get her to school we are going to have to use either Uber or Lift, both of which will cost about $60 per day which we can't afford. We recently learned that the regional transit system alternative for disabled people called Access, I think it is something different in Chicago, has a program to transport parents and their children to school. We thought our problem had been solved, but not so quick. First they say the program is already full and there is a waiting list of unspecified length. Moreover the Access regions where Sterling's school is located is different than the Access region where we live, even though  both regions are in Los Angeles and in the same LAUSD school district. Presumably this Access transportation for blind parents cannot cross between Access regions. Very Frustrating.


I also feel like I dropped the ball because we are fortunate enough to live 6 miles from a school called Mirman which is one of only a few private schools for highly gifted kids in the U.S. Problem is we would have had to begin the application process about this time last year including testing and so on, and we hadn't done any testing at that time. Also it costs $35,000 a year, though they do offer financial aid. Even more important, they provide transportation. One of their Psychologists will be testing Sterling 2 weeks from tomorrow, so maybe she can get in to Mirman for first grade. For now though we have to get her to kindergarten for the next 9 months.


The transportation thing is also a big security problem because of all the crime in LA. We live in  one of the four most exclusive parts of LA and the crime is now as bad here as any other part of LA. Along our street are RV's parked where people live, and they set on lawn chairs outside their RV's in the grassy area between the sidewalk and street. I don't know that these folks pose any real threat because they are homeowners, albeit on wheels, , but there are drugged out homeless people living all over the place or so we understand. Two weeks ago our neighbor called my wife and told her to keep Sterling off our patio, because she had just seen a man walk by her patio which is adjacent to ours, looking crazy or drugged out and carrying a large butcher knife in front of him. Our building has a six foot fence around it, but apparently it is easy to jump.


Also I don't trust  Uber to drive Sarah and Sterling anywhere safely. Many of the drivers are fine and pretty helpful, but this can't be counted on. About a month ago Sarah took an Uber home from the dentist, and she was paying attention to the various turns of the car as a matter of course, just to know where she was in the trip as all blind people do. After turning on what seemed like it should have been our street, the driver slowed the car and turned off the motor and just sat there. Sarah was confused by what was going on because she knew they were not at our building because he would have needed to drive to the end of our block to a turn-around to be positioned on the correct side of our street. Finally she asked the driver if she would be arriving soon, and he said you're here. Sarah asked where are we stopped. He said by your building. She asked where is the building and he said, right there. Knowing this could not be correct, Sarah asked him if he would walk her to the door of the building? He said no, I don't provide social services. She took a chance, got out of the car and crossed the street. She heard someone coming walking her dog, and she was able to confirm she was actually at our building thank God.


I gather our crime problem is nothing compared to yours in Chicago. At the beginning of each week I usually see a headline like 53 shot over the weekend in Lori Lightfoot's Chicago. This always makes me sad both because I love Chicago, but I went to law school with Lori Lightfoot and I really liked her. I don't know if Chicago's problems are her fault, but she doesn't seem to be able to get a handle on it.


As I remember, you are on the western edge of Rogers Park. Has the shooting violence extended that far North? I hope not.


Well I have now finished my beer, so I guess I should be moving along. I will definitely give you a call later this week for real. It might even be during the day now that Sterling will be in school. I can't yet completely imagine what our days will be like without her here all the time. Makes me sad to think about it, but I will definitely get more done.


Also remind me to get Charlene's phone number from you when we talk. I'm very proud of her for getting into and completing Columbia Law School so I want to call and tell her so. It's a very unpleasant experience for everyone, and especially so when one is blind. I'm not really surprised though because Charlene has tenacity in spades, and that's what it takes.


Talk with you soon my friend.

D



8/13/2022 3:16 PM, Gene wrote:

An illustration of why you shouldn't have the attitude that this or that single program will be the only one you will use for this or that purpose.

I don't uninstall programs even if I usually use another one for the purpose the program serves.  One day, there might be a reason to use the one I seldom use.

Gene
On 8/13/2022 5:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.


Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.


Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.


Mary








Gene
 

I agree, but my interest is in getting people to realize that for a second screen-reader, which people may want to use if their first doesn't do something, they can do a lot knowing little about it so they will consider having a second one available.

Also, nowing what I'm saying may encourage people to try another screen-reader  and perhaps switch if they find it meets their needs, which they might not even have tried before, such as trying NVDA.

Gene

On 8/14/2022 12:30 AM, David Goldfield wrote:

Gene, I actually do agree with most of what you’ve written. I would say, though, that the more a user knows about his/her screen reader the more they’ll be able to customize what they hear or read in Braille. You’re right in that you can get away with very little screen reader knowledge in order to navigate Web pages and perform basic editing of documents but the more you know about whatever screen reader you’re using the more you’ll be in control of what you’re reading. It also will help you to deal with Web sites or applications that may not be playing nice out of the box. The same can really be said about any application. I could choose to learn very little about Microsoft Word and with a small amount of knowledge I could perform basic editing tasks. However, if I chose to go beyond the basics I’ll have even more control over what I can do with my document, how I can alter it, present it and correct a variety of issues that I might find with it.

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:56 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days

 

It depends on what you want to do with a screen-reader.  A lot of people use two screen-readers.  If you know Windows and Windows programs, that is the structures they use and how to work with them, you can use any screen-reader to do a lot if you know a small number of commands such as read title bar, read current line, and its nice to know how to adjust the speech rate and set punctuation.  Read to end is important to know.

Commands for browsing the Internet, that is navigation commands such as h for heading, n for skip blocks of links are quite standardized these days.

And you don't have to own JAWS to benefit from having two screen-readers available.  You can use a JAWS demo for times when NVDA doesn't do something or do it well.  Many people can use NVDA for pretty much anything.

I've used Window-eyes, NVDA, JAWS, System Access, and I've played with Narrator so I have lots of experience to say what I've said.  If you know Windows basics and program structures, which are in many cases the same as Windows structures, menus, dialogs, and in some programs and in some places in Windows ribbons, you can do a lot knowing little about any screen-reader.

It is an advantage to have more than one screen-reader. 

For the majority of people, most of the learning done is the structures of Windows and Windows programs.  The screen-reader is not a large part of what is learned.  Depending on how you use programs, you would learn more or less about a screen-reader.

Gene

On 8/13/2022 8:24 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view, daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count the number of screen readers or other solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.

 

Mary

 

On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:

I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface.  But I can say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader.  In Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.

That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA.  If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.

Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't realize that that is what they are advocating.

Gene

On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?
On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote:
 
Hello Mary
 
I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.
 
 
I'm happy to hear it worked for you.
 
All the best,
 
Dennis
 
 
On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.
 
 
Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.
 
 
Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.
 
 
Mary
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

 
David Goldfield
 

It does occur to me that Microsoft continues to add more magnification features in Windows for its low vision users. Yet I see no signs of Zoomtext or, for that matter, SuperNova slowing down.

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:28 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days

 

On Sat, Aug 13, 2022 at 09:09 PM, Gene wrote:

That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA.  If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.

-
Well, I'd say your wish is not going to be met, as Narrator is nipping at the heels of the other screen readers that run on Windows, though its market share right now is small.  There is no doubt that Microsoft intends Narrator to be very serious competition for all the existing screen readers.  But that is by no means any guarantee that it will take over the market, but it will definitely be making further inroads.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

   ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.
David Goldfield
 

That’s true. In addition, SuperNova from Dolphin is still being developed so that’s yet one more choice in screen readers. Then again I haven’t yet met one individual, at least in the U.S., who has admitted to using it. It’s something I’ve been meaning to try but with the level of accessibility that I already have with Narrator, JAWS and NVDA I just didn’t have enough motivation.

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Governor staten
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:30 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days

 

I'd say some of this is not quite accurate. For one, you can buy Jaws for a hundred a year, and keep getting updates. They have switched to the subscription model Microsoft uses. As long as you pay, you will keep getting updates.

 

 

 

On 8/13/2022 9:24 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view, daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count the number of screen readers or other solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.

 

Mary

 

On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:

I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface.  But I can say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader.  In Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.

That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA.  If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.

Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't realize that that is what they are advocating.

Gene

On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?
On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote:
 
Hello Mary
 
I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.
 
 
I'm happy to hear it worked for you.
 
All the best,
 
Dennis
 
 
On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.
 
 
Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.
 
 
Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.
 
 
Mary
 
 
 
 
 
 

 
David Goldfield
 

Gene, I actually do agree with most of what you’ve written. I would say, though, that the more a user knows about his/her screen reader the more they’ll be able to customize what they hear or read in Braille. You’re right in that you can get away with very little screen reader knowledge in order to navigate Web pages and perform basic editing of documents but the more you know about whatever screen reader you’re using the more you’ll be in control of what you’re reading. It also will help you to deal with Web sites or applications that may not be playing nice out of the box. The same can really be said about any application. I could choose to learn very little about Microsoft Word and with a small amount of knowledge I could perform basic editing tasks. However, if I chose to go beyond the basics I’ll have even more control over what I can do with my document, how I can alter it, present it and correct a variety of issues that I might find with it.

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:56 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days

 

It depends on what you want to do with a screen-reader.  A lot of people use two screen-readers.  If you know Windows and Windows programs, that is the structures they use and how to work with them, you can use any screen-reader to do a lot if you know a small number of commands such as read title bar, read current line, and its nice to know how to adjust the speech rate and set punctuation.  Read to end is important to know.

Commands for browsing the Internet, that is navigation commands such as h for heading, n for skip blocks of links are quite standardized these days.

And you don't have to own JAWS to benefit from having two screen-readers available.  You can use a JAWS demo for times when NVDA doesn't do something or do it well.  Many people can use NVDA for pretty much anything.

I've used Window-eyes, NVDA, JAWS, System Access, and I've played with Narrator so I have lots of experience to say what I've said.  If you know Windows basics and program structures, which are in many cases the same as Windows structures, menus, dialogs, and in some programs and in some places in Windows ribbons, you can do a lot knowing little about any screen-reader.

It is an advantage to have more than one screen-reader. 

For the majority of people, most of the learning done is the structures of Windows and Windows programs.  The screen-reader is not a large part of what is learned.  Depending on how you use programs, you would learn more or less about a screen-reader.

Gene

On 8/13/2022 8:24 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view, daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count the number of screen readers or other solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.

 

Mary

 

On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:

I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface.  But I can say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader.  In Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.

That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA.  If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.

Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't realize that that is what they are advocating.

Gene

On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?
On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote:
 
Hello Mary
 
I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.
 
 
I'm happy to hear it worked for you.
 
All the best,
 
Dennis
 
 
On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.
 
 
Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.
 
 
Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.
 
 
Mary
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

 
David Goldfield
 

I think that one reason why Narrator won’t gain much ground in the corporate sector is due to its current lack of customization. One benefit of JAWS is that it offers a large amount of options to configure how things are spoken or displayed in Braille, with the script language being just one of those features. I think that if we see Narrator being given the ability to accept custom scripts it may be taken more seriously by corporate users. I do agree that it’s gaining ground and is becoming an impressive screen reader.

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

 

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 10:48 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days

 

That may be.  So far, Narrator is much more limited, though it can do a lot more than it used to.

Gene

On 8/13/2022 8:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Sat, Aug 13, 2022 at 09:09 PM, Gene wrote:

That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA.  If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.

-
Well, I'd say your wish is not going to be met, as Narrator is nipping at the heels of the other screen readers that run on Windows, though its market share right now is small.  There is no doubt that Microsoft intends Narrator to be very serious competition for all the existing screen readers.  But that is by no means any guarantee that it will take over the market, but it will definitely be making further inroads.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

   ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

 
Dennis Clark
 

Hi Mary,

I do still scan in books and many documents. I use a Fujitsu combination flatbed scanner with a built in document feeder. I think I bought it in 2012. It is very fast such that when it is feeding through pages, it feeds so quickly there is almost no noticeable delay between pages. I can knock off a book very quickly.


I usually pull PDF files into Kurzweil to read, though I can also use ABBYY Finereader for the same purpose. To create PDF files I pull non PDF files into ABBYY and then save to PDF.


I remember that we were both on the Kurzweil Beta testing team back in the good ole days. Are you still in contact with Stephen? I haven't talked with him since he left Kurzweil.


With regard  to Windows I still use Windows 10.


Its wonderful to see you posting here and I am happy to see you are still doing well.

All the best,

Dennis

On 8/13/2022 5:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?
On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote:

Hello Mary

I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.


I'm happy to hear it worked for you.

All the best,

Dennis


On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.


Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.


Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.


Mary
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