Couple of queries


Brian's Mail list account
 

I have a second hand HP Spectre Laptop here, and I'd like to disable its pesky touch screen. Its baffling me somewhat!

Secondly, it would be mighty fine if in Windows Explorer on Windows 10, it did not have ribbon menus, of course you can use short cut keys, but I have a nifty program for Windows 7 that puts the classic menu bar back. Is there anything like this for Windows 10, at least until I can get my head around Ribbons?
I have yet to meet anyone sighted or not that understands the logic behind ribbons, and simply cannot understand why Microsoft uses them.
However that would probably start a war, and I only want answers.
Brian

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in the display name field.


 

Brian, I also have a touchscreen.

The easiest way round this is simpler then disabling it.

Don't use the board unless you need to.

I haven't used my laptop keyboard since well at least 10 years now unless on the road.

I play a lot of games and like to beat on the keys.

I used to do that back during school and ended up bashing in quite a few laptop boards.

Initially I had an external standard logitech kbd120 when bashing about but now whilst at home have upgraded to a now ancient asus strix tactic pro and have never looked back in fact my last purchice was a hyper x armwrest for the board so I could use the board and rest my hands on it to avoid rsi when in the house.

You can probably go to device manager, locate the mouse then disable it and then you have no mouse or look at mouse properties and see if you can turn the touchpad off maybe you can.

You should also be able to lower sensitivity  some because maybe its that.

My touchpad never auto triggers though at default and if it is, its probably a synaptics one and there should be generic drivers some place.

I have just checked and I really have to intentionally press on my workstation pad to get it to trigger.

Some do not have bezzels so they trigger a lot though.

But using an external keyboard and mouse helps.

During covid my aunt had to get a laptop after her job needed it.

Initially she had it on a dining table with a wired old genius mouse and my old kb120 I of course upgraded my mouse to a then mx500 for swamping.

I hardly use that either but I keep it about.

Anyway point is those were on a cheap usb hub which I eventually got updated to a tp link gaming hub which serves me well enough.

Anyway that never lasted because well wires.

I got her an old now clearance logitech minni mouse and keyboard combo for round 30 dollars.

The slimb board has a lot of functions needing the fn key which is a bit crappy but it suits the table and its got a 3 year battery life and the mouse has 2 years one.

Both are constantly used and have been going for 5 years on a single charge, still the original cells to.

Now you don't have to go all out for a mechanical board either, an entry level logitech or even one of the lenovo units will work.

My dad has a lenovo mouse and keyboard with his thinkcentre and was initially going to switch back to his older wireless board but has ended up liking the board and if and when I need  to replace this gaming board if I couldn't afford another cherry mx switch board I'd probably get that, or well one of the less clicky but still pressable silent switch boards.

You can buy boards reasonably cheap and the logitech kbd120s are still sold for wired.

On 25/08/2022 8:47 pm, Brian's Mail list account via groups.io wrote:
I have a second hand HP Spectre Laptop here, and I'd like to disable its pesky touch screen. Its baffling me somewhat!

Secondly, it would be mighty fine if in Windows Explorer on Windows 10, it did not have ribbon menus, of course you can use short cut keys, but I have a nifty program for Windows 7 that puts the classic menu bar back. Is there anything like this for Windows 10, at least until I can get my head around Ribbons?
I have yet to meet anyone sighted or not that understands the logic behind ribbons, and simply cannot understand why Microsoft uses them.
However that would probably start a war, and I only want answers.
Brian


Rosemarie Chavarria
 

Hi, Brian,

 

Sorry but ribbons are here to stay. It’s really not that hard to learn them once you get the hang of it.

 

Rosemarie

 

 

 

Sent from Mail for Windows

 

From: Brian's Mail list account via groups.io
Sent: Thursday, August 25, 2022 1:47 AM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [chat] Couple of queries

 

I have a second hand HP Spectre Laptop here, and I'd like to disable its

pesky touch screen. Its baffling me somewhat!

 

Secondly, it would be mighty fine if in Windows Explorer on Windows 10, it

did not have ribbon menus, of course you can use short cut keys, but I have

a nifty program for Windows 7 that puts the classic menu bar back. Is there

anything like this for Windows 10, at least until I can get my head around

Ribbons?

I have yet to meet anyone sighted or not that understands the logic behind

ribbons, and simply cannot understand why Microsoft uses them.

However that would probably start a war, and I only want answers.

Brian

 

--

bglists@...

Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)

Please address personal E-mail to:-

briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'

in the display name field.

 

 

 

 

 

 


Don Robinson
 

Would this work? https://winaero.com/how-to-disable-ribbon-in-windows-10-explorer/?amp


 

On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 12:49 PM, Don Robinson wrote:
https://winaero.com/how-to-disable-ribbon-in-windows-10-explorer/
-
That article dates from 2014, prior to the official release of Windows 10 to the public, so proceed with caution.  And this is coming from a big fan of the developer of WinAero Tweaker.

And even that being said, can someone please explain to me what the value is in hiding the ribbon, which is all that utility does?  When it comes to File Explorer versus Windows Explorer the vast majority of the keyboard shortcuts we all know and love remained utterly unchanged.  And if you're trying to figure out how to do something you either very seldom do, or where a change did occur, a web search on ["File Explorer" {insert function you're looking for here} keyboard shortcut] is the fastest way to turn it up.  That was true even in the Windows Explorer era when you were trying to do something you seldom do.

Whether the ribbon interface is visible, or not, doesn't have the slightest impact on the keyboard shortcuts used by Windows in File Explorer to handle specific functions.

I've written tutorials on the ribbon interface, and it so happens the first one used File Explorer as its basis.  Gene Asner has also written several.  And here they all are for anyone's downloading pleasure:
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

   ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


Robert Cole
 

You can try a portable app from 

Called Explorer++
It uses menus and not Ribbons.

Rob

On Aug 25, 2022, at 4:47 AM, Brian's Mail list account via groups.io <bglists@...> wrote:

I have a second hand HP Spectre Laptop here, and I'd like to disable its pesky touch screen. Its baffling me somewhat!

Secondly, it would be mighty fine if in Windows Explorer on Windows 10, it did not have ribbon menus, of course you can use short cut keys, but I have a nifty program for Windows 7 that puts the classic menu bar back. Is there anything like this for Windows 10, at least until I can get my head around Ribbons?
I have yet to meet anyone sighted or not that understands the logic behind ribbons, and simply cannot understand why Microsoft uses them.
However that would probably start a war, and I only want answers.
Brian

--
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.







Gene
 

I  have written a few tutorials, hosted by Brian.  One is on ribbons, one on object navigation and one on screen review. 

Gene

On 8/25/2022 12:02 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 12:49 PM, Don Robinson wrote:
https://winaero.com/how-to-disable-ribbon-in-windows-10-explorer/
-
That article dates from 2014, prior to the official release of Windows 10 to the public, so proceed with caution.  And this is coming from a big fan of the developer of WinAero Tweaker.

And even that being said, can someone please explain to me what the value is in hiding the ribbon, which is all that utility does?  When it comes to File Explorer versus Windows Explorer the vast majority of the keyboard shortcuts we all know and love remained utterly unchanged.  And if you're trying to figure out how to do something you either very seldom do, or where a change did occur, a web search on ["File Explorer" {insert function you're looking for here} keyboard shortcut] is the fastest way to turn it up.  That was true even in the Windows Explorer era when you were trying to do something you seldom do.

Whether the ribbon interface is visible, or not, doesn't have the slightest impact on the keyboard shortcuts used by Windows in File Explorer to handle specific functions.

I've written tutorials on the ribbon interface, and it so happens the first one used File Explorer as its basis.  Gene Asner has also written several.  And here they all are for anyone's downloading pleasure:
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

   ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.



Gene
 

I'll add that I think an important reason there is so much ;persistent fear of ribbons is because instruction has usually been poor and many people probably haven't received any or not much.

Imagine if you were just learning Windows and you hadn't received any or hardly any instruction on menus or what you received was poor.  You might have the same fear and dislike of menus that so many people have of ribbons.  And the fear and dislike is spread as people discuss their fear and dislike with others. 

In this environment, I think the only way to really know what you think of ribbons is to learn something about them, being well instructed and see what you think of them, rather than basing an opinion on what you may have seen elsewhere.

While this is oversimplified, in essence, ribbons are menus organized differently so you mostly tab and shift tab to move through them rather than use the arrow keys as the main means of movement.

Gene

On 8/25/2022 1:38 PM, Gene via groups.io wrote:

I  have written a few tutorials, hosted by Brian.  One is on ribbons, one on object navigation and one on screen review. 

Gene

On 8/25/2022 12:02 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 12:49 PM, Don Robinson wrote:
https://winaero.com/how-to-disable-ribbon-in-windows-10-explorer/
-
That article dates from 2014, prior to the official release of Windows 10 to the public, so proceed with caution.  And this is coming from a big fan of the developer of WinAero Tweaker.

And even that being said, can someone please explain to me what the value is in hiding the ribbon, which is all that utility does?  When it comes to File Explorer versus Windows Explorer the vast majority of the keyboard shortcuts we all know and love remained utterly unchanged.  And if you're trying to figure out how to do something you either very seldom do, or where a change did occur, a web search on ["File Explorer" {insert function you're looking for here} keyboard shortcut] is the fastest way to turn it up.  That was true even in the Windows Explorer era when you were trying to do something you seldom do.

Whether the ribbon interface is visible, or not, doesn't have the slightest impact on the keyboard shortcuts used by Windows in File Explorer to handle specific functions.

I've written tutorials on the ribbon interface, and it so happens the first one used File Explorer as its basis.  Gene Asner has also written several.  And here they all are for anyone's downloading pleasure:
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

   ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.




Don Robinson
 

You are absolutely correct. I did not research this properly and do not recommend trying to use it. Still a great fan of Winaero Tweaker.


 

On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 02:45 PM, Gene wrote:
I'll add that I think an important reason there is so much ;persistent fear of ribbons is because instruction has usually been poor and many people probably haven't received any or not much.
-
Gene,

Not that I'm disagreeing with your overarching point, but I do have to ask how this is different than so many other things in Windows as time and the UI have marched on?

Most of us received whatever training we did receive when we were completely new to Windows in particular, and often computers in general.  I expect, regardless of visual status, that things are going to change and that means that users are going to have to be constantly learning in order to keep using Windows effectively.  Your tutorial on the ribbon interface is really quite good, and should be enough for anyone who is genuinely interested in getting started with ribbons to do so.  As in all things, practice is what makes perfect.

I cannot count the number of things I've had to teach myself since entering the world of computing in the mid-1980s.  I don't discount that it is very often more difficult when you cannot see, simply because the Windows UI, like any GUI, uses visual cues that are really not possible to communicate in words with the same immediacy they have in the sensory modality they are native to.  But if you already have a background with Windows, and already understand how menus work, the ribbons are simply menus that are navigated slightly differently.

If the amount of effort that is expended on expressing anything from dislike to hatred for the ribbon interface were put into learning it, . . .
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

   ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


Nimer Jaber
 

I actually equate ribbons as being more similar to dialog boxes than menus. I understand where the parallels to menus comes from, but navigating a ribbon is more similar to that of a dialog box of settings. Things are less hidden, so once we can get users past this idea that menus were better simply because that is what they were used to, ribbons allows for easier conceptualized learning. Maybe not as efficient at first, but certainly easier if a user learns concepts. And, of course, we now have things like the ribbon search which can make finding things in there possibly easier given that an individual knows what they're looking for.

On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 1:53 PM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 02:45 PM, Gene wrote:
I'll add that I think an important reason there is so much ;persistent fear of ribbons is because instruction has usually been poor and many people probably haven't received any or not much.
-
Gene,

Not that I'm disagreeing with your overarching point, but I do have to ask how this is different than so many other things in Windows as time and the UI have marched on?

Most of us received whatever training we did receive when we were completely new to Windows in particular, and often computers in general.  I expect, regardless of visual status, that things are going to change and that means that users are going to have to be constantly learning in order to keep using Windows effectively.  Your tutorial on the ribbon interface is really quite good, and should be enough for anyone who is genuinely interested in getting started with ribbons to do so.  As in all things, practice is what makes perfect.

I cannot count the number of things I've had to teach myself since entering the world of computing in the mid-1980s.  I don't discount that it is very often more difficult when you cannot see, simply because the Windows UI, like any GUI, uses visual cues that are really not possible to communicate in words with the same immediacy they have in the sensory modality they are native to.  But if you already have a background with Windows, and already understand how menus work, the ribbons are simply menus that are navigated slightly differently.

If the amount of effort that is expended on expressing anything from dislike to hatred for the ribbon interface were put into learning it, . . .
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

   ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

Check out and subscribe to BlindTechAdventures in podcast audio form on YouTube for the latest happenings in tech.

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!


 

On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 05:00 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
And, of course, we now have things like the ribbon search which can make finding things in there possibly easier given that an individual knows what they're looking for.
-
Can you give some pointers to resources about ribbon search?  I am really uncertain about exactly what's being referred to when you (or anyone) is referring to this.

Whether one wishes to think of the ribbon as a menu versus a dialog (and it's really an amalgamation of the two, in reality) the basics of using that interface are not difficult to master and they apply across programs, as traversal of a ribbon is the same regardless of its specific content (not unlike a menu or a dialog - once you know how to deal with one, you pretty much know how to deal with all of them).
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

   ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


Nimer Jaber
 

In office, alt+q and in Docs, alt+/ is a menu/ribbon search.


On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 2:08 PM Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 05:00 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
And, of course, we now have things like the ribbon search which can make finding things in there possibly easier given that an individual knows what they're looking for.
-
Can you give some pointers to resources about ribbon search?  I am really uncertain about exactly what's being referred to when you (or anyone) is referring to this.

Whether one wishes to think of the ribbon as a menu versus a dialog (and it's really an amalgamation of the two, in reality) the basics of using that interface are not difficult to master and they apply across programs, as traversal of a ribbon is the same regardless of its specific content (not unlike a menu or a dialog - once you know how to deal with one, you pretty much know how to deal with all of them).
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

   ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.



--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

Check out and subscribe to BlindTechAdventures in podcast audio form on YouTube for the latest happenings in tech.

You can follow @nimerjaber on Twitter for the latest technology news.

Thank you, and have a great day!


Gene
 

Thank you for your compliment about the tutorial.  I hope it encourages people who want to learn about ribbons but are apprehensive.

I think this is different because, even though Windows changes, you can still do most things in old ways even though new ways may be added over time.

Things such as some settings may change where they are located in Windows, but once you know Windows, you more or less know Windows.

Ribbons are more or less menus that are organized differently but this isn't apparent without proper instruction.  If someone  tries different things with ribbons and doesn't have any idea what he/she is doing, the person may become convinced that ribbons don't make logical sense.

Gene

On 8/25/2022 3:53 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 02:45 PM, Gene wrote:
I'll add that I think an important reason there is so much ;persistent fear of ribbons is because instruction has usually been poor and many people probably haven't received any or not much.
-
Gene,

Not that I'm disagreeing with your overarching point, but I do have to ask how this is different than so many other things in Windows as time and the UI have marched on?

Most of us received whatever training we did receive when we were completely new to Windows in particular, and often computers in general.  I expect, regardless of visual status, that things are going to change and that means that users are going to have to be constantly learning in order to keep using Windows effectively.  Your tutorial on the ribbon interface is really quite good, and should be enough for anyone who is genuinely interested in getting started with ribbons to do so.  As in all things, practice is what makes perfect.

I cannot count the number of things I've had to teach myself since entering the world of computing in the mid-1980s.  I don't discount that it is very often more difficult when you cannot see, simply because the Windows UI, like any GUI, uses visual cues that are really not possible to communicate in words with the same immediacy they have in the sensory modality they are native to.  But if you already have a background with Windows, and already understand how menus work, the ribbons are simply menus that are navigated slightly differently.

If the amount of effort that is expended on expressing anything from dislike to hatred for the ribbon interface were put into learning it, . . .
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

   ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.



 

On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 05:38 PM, Nimer Jaber wrote:
In office, alt+q and in Docs, alt+/ is a menu/ribbon search.
-
Thanks.  I am quite aware of ALT + Q, but just don't refer to it in that way (even though, in effect, that's exactly what it is).

Glad to know of the same in Docs, even though I don't use Docs much from the "composition" side.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

   ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


 

On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 05:45 PM, Gene wrote:
If someone  tries different things with ribbons and doesn't have any idea what he/she is doing, the person may become convinced that ribbons don't make logical sense.
-
Gene,

I can't disagree with this.

What I do disagree with is that anyone who "doesn't have any idea what he/she is doing," is not obligated to do a bit of homework so that they will know.  That was my point.  I have not been formally taught most of what I know these days about computers.  I had to learn it/learn about it as it came on the scene.  And I've had plenty of instances where I was making SWAGs where I figured out, quickly, that this was not getting me anywhere and I needed to start doing some homework myself.

Sometimes that "homework" may lead you to formal training, but most times, it does not.  It leads you to reference materials where, in most cases, you don't try to read them "first page to last" but instead strategically focus on the part(s) related to what it is you're trying to do.  Much like you don't read a dictionary from cover to cover but focus on the words you need at a given moment.

There seems to be a very false assumption that ribbons and all sorts of things really are and should be "intuitive."  Intuitive is the word I have come to despise most when it comes to computing, because absolutely nothing is truly intuitive in any meaningful sense.  There is a learning curve, and many forget just how shallow and long it was once they've reached mastery of something.  Menus are not "intuitive," but are incredibly information-dense mechanisms where things reveal themselves only partially and require exploration in order to get a feel for how they work and what's there "several submenus down" that are not immediately apparent.  They're just what most of us were weaned on, as they were the UI rage of their day.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

   ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


Gene
 

I think there are two separate issues regarding what you say in the case of ribbons. 

First, a lot of computer using blind people get information from other blind people not on lists like this, where incorrect or misleading information is challenged but from other blind people, more or less as rumors are spread.  If you get many blind people telling you how bad ribbons are, you may not check further. 

Almost every time I see a statement on lists where general technology is discussed from a blindness perspective that begins with I heard, the statement is either wrong or so misleading that it might as well be wrong. 

The other problem is the question of what materials are available that teach ribbons and how good they are that are stand alone items.  I created my tutorial to fill that gap, if it existed or exists.  I have almost never seen people referred to stand alone material on ribbons.  I'm sure they are covered in material teaching Windows or this or that program that uses ribbons but I'm not at all sure much stand alone material exists or that that which is good is at all well known.

Gene

On 8/25/2022 4:56 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 05:45 PM, Gene wrote:
If someone  tries different things with ribbons and doesn't have any idea what he/she is doing, the person may become convinced that ribbons don't make logical sense.
-
Gene,

I can't disagree with this.

What I do disagree with is that anyone who "doesn't have any idea what he/she is doing," is not obligated to do a bit of homework so that they will know.  That was my point.  I have not been formally taught most of what I know these days about computers.  I had to learn it/learn about it as it came on the scene.  And I've had plenty of instances where I was making SWAGs where I figured out, quickly, that this was not getting me anywhere and I needed to start doing some homework myself.

Sometimes that "homework" may lead you to formal training, but most times, it does not.  It leads you to reference materials where, in most cases, you don't try to read them "first page to last" but instead strategically focus on the part(s) related to what it is you're trying to do.  Much like you don't read a dictionary from cover to cover but focus on the words you need at a given moment.

There seems to be a very false assumption that ribbons and all sorts of things really are and should be "intuitive."  Intuitive is the word I have come to despise most when it comes to computing, because absolutely nothing is truly intuitive in any meaningful sense.  There is a learning curve, and many forget just how shallow and long it was once they've reached mastery of something.  Menus are not "intuitive," but are incredibly information-dense mechanisms where things reveal themselves only partially and require exploration in order to get a feel for how they work and what's there "several submenus down" that are not immediately apparent.  They're just what most of us were weaned on, as they were the UI rage of their day.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

   ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.



 

On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 06:07 PM, Gene wrote:
I have almost never seen people referred to stand alone material on ribbons.  I'm sure they are covered in material teaching Windows or this or that program that uses ribbons but I'm not at all sure much stand alone material exists or that that which is good is at all well known.
-
And I'd say that this is because it makes no sense to try to teach ribbons in the abstract just like it makes no sense to try to teach a screen reader in the abstract.

Both of these technologies are used to access something, but where the meaning of access is at different levels.  The principles of how the ribbon works is the same no matter where you first learn it, while the ribbons available and their controls vary widely between programs.  The principles of how a screen reader works is the same no matter what program(s) you're using it to access, though you may use different screen reader features in one context versus another.  But you can't teach a screen reader without actually using it to access some specific something and expect someone to get any grasp of how you actually use it.

But that's another issue with training in general, far too much of it focuses on mechanics, and only mechanics, rather than concepts which can be generalized.  Yet there are exceptions to that.  How many people do not understand the concepts behind Cut, Copy, and Paste even though those are used to manipulate text in a program, files and folders in File Explorer, etc.?   I've never really had to do a ton of in-depth explaining of the differences between what is being manipulated, as those are quite obvious, but exactly how those specific commands work.  And even getting students to understand the difference between copy and cut is not generally all that difficult.  But what you're teaching is the concept of the command, not focusing on the thing being manipulated.  That's why questions of the form, "How do I use {insert program here} with {insert screen reader here}?," or, "How do I change the font in Word using NVDA?," drive me to distraction.  The specific screen reader in use has absolutely nothing to do with it, as what's being asked about is how the specific program controls work and what they are.  Why it's not taught that a screen reader is a meta-level over all programs, and that the controls in those programs are independent of the screen reader in use, I will never know.  Even for keyboard shortcuts, I feel it's essential that people understand that Windows has first dibs, the screen reader has second dibs, and the program being accessed has third.  And if Windows processes a keyboard shortcut, neither the screen reader nor the program will ever have a crack at it.  If the screen reader processes a keyboard shortcut, no program will ever have a crack at it unless you use the pass-through command.  And if you somehow issue a keyboard shortcut that is not processed by Windows, is not processed by the screen reader, and is not recognized by the program then nothing happens.  So many questions can be answered just by thinking about this when something you think should have happened did not happen, or something happened that you had not expected.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

   ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.


Gene
 

You have to teach ribbons in the context of demonstrating them in Windows or programs.  You can't teach ribbons in a vacuum, as you point out.  But stand alone material should have been available and widely publicized when ribbons were introduced.  People who know Windows or already know a program in which ribbons have been introduced don't need training material that goes beyond ribbons. They already know Windows or the program in general.

Ribbons were first introduced in certain specific programs.  Without stand alone material teaching ribbons in those programs, that was widely publicized, misinformation was free to spread, and it did.  We are still feeling the effects of that initial wide spread misinformation today.

Gene

On 8/25/2022 5:24 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 06:07 PM, Gene wrote:
I have almost never seen people referred to stand alone material on ribbons.  I'm sure they are covered in material teaching Windows or this or that program that uses ribbons but I'm not at all sure much stand alone material exists or that that which is good is at all well known.
-
And I'd say that this is because it makes no sense to try to teach ribbons in the abstract just like it makes no sense to try to teach a screen reader in the abstract.

Both of these technologies are used to access something, but where the meaning of access is at different levels.  The principles of how the ribbon works is the same no matter where you first learn it, while the ribbons available and their controls vary widely between programs.  The principles of how a screen reader works is the same no matter what program(s) you're using it to access, though you may use different screen reader features in one context versus another.  But you can't teach a screen reader without actually using it to access some specific something and expect someone to get any grasp of how you actually use it.

But that's another issue with training in general, far too much of it focuses on mechanics, and only mechanics, rather than concepts which can be generalized.  Yet there are exceptions to that.  How many people do not understand the concepts behind Cut, Copy, and Paste even though those are used to manipulate text in a program, files and folders in File Explorer, etc.?   I've never really had to do a ton of in-depth explaining of the differences between what is being manipulated, as those are quite obvious, but exactly how those specific commands work.  And even getting students to understand the difference between copy and cut is not generally all that difficult.  But what you're teaching is the concept of the command, not focusing on the thing being manipulated.  That's why questions of the form, "How do I use {insert program here} with {insert screen reader here}?," or, "How do I change the font in Word using NVDA?," drive me to distraction.  The specific screen reader in use has absolutely nothing to do with it, as what's being asked about is how the specific program controls work and what they are.  Why it's not taught that a screen reader is a meta-level over all programs, and that the controls in those programs are independent of the screen reader in use, I will never know.  Even for keyboard shortcuts, I feel it's essential that people understand that Windows has first dibs, the screen reader has second dibs, and the program being accessed has third.  And if Windows processes a keyboard shortcut, neither the screen reader nor the program will ever have a crack at it.  If the screen reader processes a keyboard shortcut, no program will ever have a crack at it unless you use the pass-through command.  And if you somehow issue a keyboard shortcut that is not processed by Windows, is not processed by the screen reader, and is not recognized by the program then nothing happens.  So many questions can be answered just by thinking about this when something you think should have happened did not happen, or something happened that you had not expected.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

   ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.



Nimer Jaber
 

Misinformation spreads about anything, whether training exists or not. There is something about people that makes them very resistant to change, very gullible, and very likely to hear the worst of anything, believe it, and spread it. It's human nature. We can argue that there is never enough training available, that training isn't available to those who need it, that people are somehow not able to find out about it, etc., but at the end of the day, it has to be up to the person to want to learn, to want something to work, to want to look up information, to want to know how to do something. Desire and motivation cannot be taught. And gossip and spreading misinformation cannot be untaught.

On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 3:46 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
You have to teach ribbons in the context of demonstrating them in Windows or programs.  You can't teach ribbons in a vacuum, as you point out.  But stand alone material should have been available and widely publicized when ribbons were introduced.  People who know Windows or already know a program in which ribbons have been introduced don't need training material that goes beyond ribbons. They already know Windows or the program in general.

Ribbons were first introduced in certain specific programs.  Without stand alone material teaching ribbons in those programs, that was widely publicized, misinformation was free to spread, and it did.  We are still feeling the effects of that initial wide spread misinformation today.

Gene

On 8/25/2022 5:24 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Thu, Aug 25, 2022 at 06:07 PM, Gene wrote:
I have almost never seen people referred to stand alone material on ribbons.  I'm sure they are covered in material teaching Windows or this or that program that uses ribbons but I'm not at all sure much stand alone material exists or that that which is good is at all well known.
-
And I'd say that this is because it makes no sense to try to teach ribbons in the abstract just like it makes no sense to try to teach a screen reader in the abstract.

Both of these technologies are used to access something, but where the meaning of access is at different levels.  The principles of how the ribbon works is the same no matter where you first learn it, while the ribbons available and their controls vary widely between programs.  The principles of how a screen reader works is the same no matter what program(s) you're using it to access, though you may use different screen reader features in one context versus another.  But you can't teach a screen reader without actually using it to access some specific something and expect someone to get any grasp of how you actually use it.

But that's another issue with training in general, far too much of it focuses on mechanics, and only mechanics, rather than concepts which can be generalized.  Yet there are exceptions to that.  How many people do not understand the concepts behind Cut, Copy, and Paste even though those are used to manipulate text in a program, files and folders in File Explorer, etc.?   I've never really had to do a ton of in-depth explaining of the differences between what is being manipulated, as those are quite obvious, but exactly how those specific commands work.  And even getting students to understand the difference between copy and cut is not generally all that difficult.  But what you're teaching is the concept of the command, not focusing on the thing being manipulated.  That's why questions of the form, "How do I use {insert program here} with {insert screen reader here}?," or, "How do I change the font in Word using NVDA?," drive me to distraction.  The specific screen reader in use has absolutely nothing to do with it, as what's being asked about is how the specific program controls work and what they are.  Why it's not taught that a screen reader is a meta-level over all programs, and that the controls in those programs are independent of the screen reader in use, I will never know.  Even for keyboard shortcuts, I feel it's essential that people understand that Windows has first dibs, the screen reader has second dibs, and the program being accessed has third.  And if Windows processes a keyboard shortcut, neither the screen reader nor the program will ever have a crack at it.  If the screen reader processes a keyboard shortcut, no program will ever have a crack at it unless you use the pass-through command.  And if you somehow issue a keyboard shortcut that is not processed by Windows, is not processed by the screen reader, and is not recognized by the program then nothing happens.  So many questions can be answered just by thinking about this when something you think should have happened did not happen, or something happened that you had not expected.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

   ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.




--
Best,

Nimer Jaber

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