End of Windows 7 and 8 Chrome support
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Gene
I'm curious whether such end of support decisions for browsers are motivated by not wanting to prolong the life of unsupported Microsoft operating systems or because different versions of the browser are released for different versions of Windows. If that is the case, does it become harder to keep them compatible over time or is it just a matter of not wanting to expend money and resources keeping them current?
Gene |
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Gene,
You can't separate out "keep compatible" and "not wanting to expend money and resources." Google doesn't give a flying rat's patootie about whether or not its prolonging the life of an unsupported Microsoft OS. I've said it before, about NVDA, and it applies equally to Chrome - there is a window of time after new versions of an OS are released where "passive backward compatibility" (essentally, you have to do nothing, or very close to it) exists. For some things (and screen readers aren't one of them, nor are browsers) a lot of effort goes into maintaining conditional code that gets compiled one way or another based on the OS under which it's being compiled in order to run. It's only cost effective to keep this sort of thing up for a fixed period of time, and these days with the advent of "Windows As A Service" those fixed periods of time have gotten shorter. It will not be very long before NVDA will be dropping support for Windows 7 not only because it becomes too expensive/difficult to do so but because the user base for Windows 7 just keeps shrinking. Applications do march in semi-lock-step with the operating systems on which they run. They have to. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. ~ John Rogers |
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I personally think it's a bit of both. On the one hand, you don't want to support older software, I would not. On the other hand, you don't want to spend time writing and rewriting old bloated code that's going to break anyway.
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-----Original Message-----
From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2022 7:35 AM To: chat@nvda.groups.io Subject: [chat] End of Windows 7 and 8 Chrome support I'm curious whether such end of support decisions for browsers are motivated by not wanting to prolong the life of unsupported Microsoft operating systems or because different versions of the browser are released for different versions of Windows. If that is the case, does it become harder to keep them compatible over time or is it just a matter of not wanting to expend money and resources keeping them current? Gene |
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Gene
Certainly you can't separate keeping compatible from money and
resources. What I meant to ask, if I didn't do so clearly, was
whether you need different versions of browsers for different
versions of Windows. I wasn't sure. Now that I know you do, I know
why Google is discontinuing support.
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Gene On 10/26/2022 9:42 AM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
Gene, |
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On Wed, Oct 26, 2022 at 11:49 AM, Gene wrote:
What I meant to ask, if I didn't do so clearly, was whether you need different versions of browsers for different versions of Windows.- And as was mentioned on the other topic, you even need different versions of browsers (and certain other types of software that rely heavily on system calls and/or calls to assembly code) based not only upon the OS but also upon the hardware platform in combination with it. This stuff was not simple even when I left employment as a full-time developer in the late 1990s, and its even less so now. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. ~ John Rogers |
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Brian's Mail list account
Well, Edge updated on my Windows 7 machine only last week. It has fixed some bugs, but otherwise seems the same. I actually try to keep two different, browsers at least, since some web sites just work better in one over the other. Google Meets for example shows me what I'm toggled on audio muting etc, whereas Firefox seems to be very hit and miss.
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I think its annoying that email nowadays seems to adopt so many different flavours of two factor authentication that most people get completely confused. So what I'm trying to say is that many web sites and peices of software seem to be involved in changes, what operating system you use is just one of the problems. Brian -- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...> To: <chat@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2022 3:35 PM Subject: [chat] End of Windows 7 and 8 Chrome support I'm curious whether such end of support decisions for browsers are motivated by not wanting to prolong the life of unsupported Microsoft operating systems or because different versions of the browser are released for different versions of Windows. If that is the case, does it become harder to keep them compatible over time or is it just a matter of not wanting to expend money and resources keeping them current? |
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Brian's Mail list account
Often if code was written with good source comments and not modified in a very ad hoc manner, there is no real reason why well known software could not be simply updated. I look at the history of Microsoft email, and see that from good old Outlook Express which ewes simple to use, we kind of went backwards to Live mail with every account being in the same identity, and then to the various flavours of internet mail and news which somewhere along the line lost accessibility, then the rather clunky mail in Windows 10, which seems somewhat restricted, even in Outlook Express features. The huge jump to Microsoft Office and Outlook with still no news support and features I'd never use is far too complicated and seems to get broken every time the office suite is updated. Its no wonder people use Third and hacked copies of OE. If there were a similar program for the latest windows, we would use it.
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Brian -- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@...> To: <chat@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2022 4:05 PM Subject: Re: [chat] End of Windows 7 and 8 Chrome support I personally think it's a bit of both. On the one hand, you don't want to support older software, I would not. On the other hand, you don't want to spend time writing and rewriting old bloated code that's going to break anyway. -----Original Message----- From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2022 7:35 AM To: chat@nvda.groups.io Subject: [chat] End of Windows 7 and 8 Chrome support I'm curious whether such end of support decisions for browsers are motivated by not wanting to prolong the life of unsupported Microsoft operating systems or because different versions of the browser are released for different versions of Windows. If that is the case, does it become harder to keep them compatible over time or is it just a matter of not wanting to expend money and resources keeping them current? Gene |
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On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 04:10 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Its no wonder people use Third and hacked copies of OE.- All I'll say is that the one and only tech community I've ever been a part of that has a "OE hangover" is the blind tech community. For the vast majority of the rest of the world, OE is not even a distant memory, it's forgotten. I'll never get what the love affair with OE is about, and I was around when it was new and didn't choose to use it then myself. I was quite happy to shake its dust from my tech sandals. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. ~ John Rogers |
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On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 04:03 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
nowadays seems to adopt so many different flavours of two factor authentication- And even though I think 2FA is gross overkill in many of the places where it gets used, it's another thing, like the ribbons interface, that is not going away. If you're a computer user, you are going to have to adjust to the 2FA techniques your various service providers impose, and that has nothing to do with your visual status whatsoever. (And Captchas are not, in any way, 2FA). This is just the latest in a long line of "go with the flow or get drowned trying to resist" things. In life in general certain requirements get imposed whether you like them or not (and I am no fan of 2FA in most cases, the use of strong, unique passwords is enough - the problem is that most people do not use strong passwords or unique ones, which has pushed the move toward 2FA). -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. ~ John Rogers |
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Um, outlook is not broken, I use this for all my accounts now, and the profiles I can create for home, work, and my podcast emails, is wonderful! It also is not clunky in the least. I hated OE as I could not in 2002 schedule emails to be delivered at x time, I could with outlook and loved it. I also now use chrome and almost nothing but on all my systems: windows and iOS, mac not so much except as a password manager.
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-----Original Message-----
From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via groups.io Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2022 1:10 AM To: chat@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [chat] End of Windows 7 and 8 Chrome support Often if code was written with good source comments and not modified in a very ad hoc manner, there is no real reason why well known software could not be simply updated. I look at the history of Microsoft email, and see that from good old Outlook Express which ewes simple to use, we kind of went backwards to Live mail with every account being in the same identity, and then to the various flavours of internet mail and news which somewhere along the line lost accessibility, then the rather clunky mail in Windows 10, which seems somewhat restricted, even in Outlook Express features. The huge jump to Microsoft Office and Outlook with still no news support and features I'd never use is far too complicated and seems to get broken every time the office suite is updated. Its no wonder people use Third and hacked copies of OE. If there were a similar program for the latest windows, we would use it. Brian -- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@...> To: <chat@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2022 4:05 PM Subject: Re: [chat] End of Windows 7 and 8 Chrome support I personally think it's a bit of both. On the one hand, you don't want to support older software, I would not. On the other hand, you don't want to spend time writing and rewriting old bloated code that's going to break anyway. -----Original Message----- From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2022 7:35 AM To: chat@nvda.groups.io Subject: [chat] End of Windows 7 and 8 Chrome support I'm curious whether such end of support decisions for browsers are motivated by not wanting to prolong the life of unsupported Microsoft operating systems or because different versions of the browser are released for different versions of Windows. If that is the case, does it become harder to keep them compatible over time or is it just a matter of not wanting to expend money and resources keeping them current? Gene |
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Oh, same here. The blindy community are nothing but complainers who love to hang onto their tech. I understand why, however you need to get out and change or be left behind as I always say. I am blunt; however it needs to be said until I’m red in the face! I wish OE would die as even in 2002 it was a piece of junk. I’ve accomplished so much more now that I’m back on outlook, and I’ve used all of the email clients out there.
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Sarah Alawami: owner of flying blind. Read my story at http://flyingblind.us.
From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2022 7:29 AM To: chat@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [chat] End of Windows 7 and 8 Chrome support
On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 04:10 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. ~ John Rogers |
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Gene
I know that one thing people like about Outlook Express is that it
had identities. I don't know enough about identities to discuss
them but my understanding is that e-mail programs usually don't have
them any longer.
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Outlook Express also had first letter navigation in the folders tree view and Thunderbird doesn't without using an add-on. Before the Thunderbird add-on, this ability wasn't in the program. Windows Live Mail doesn't have that ability. I don't know about Outlook. And there is the annoyance of Thunderbird not showing the sender before the subject line by default, which can be conveniently changed with an NVDA add-on, but which a lot of users wouldn't know how to change or change at all conveniently. But Outlook Express has the significant disadvantage that e-mail folders are much more likely to become corrupted. I'm not saying people should or shouldn't use Outlook Express. I'm saying that there actually are reasons many blind people might want to continue doing so, especially if they don't know how to change header display or add first letter navigation in the folders tree view. Gene On 10/27/2022 9:28 AM, Brian Vogel
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On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 04:10 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote: |
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On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 11:13 AM, Gene wrote:
I'm not saying people should or shouldn't use Outlook Express. I'm saying that there actually are reasons many blind people might want to continue doing so, especially if they don't know how to change header display or add first letter navigation in the folders tree view.- Gene, Sorry, but no. The answers on how to do these tweaks takes mere seconds with a web search. Blind users don't get a pass on this, and I'm not saying you're personally trying to give them one, but it's become abundantly clear to me in my years on these groups that far too many do. Being blind cannot and should not be assumed to mean that you can't seek out easily available information related to your needs related to a screen reader and a given program when myriad discussions exist out there on exactly how to do the fix(es) you seek. I really don't care what people choose to use. But I am completely over the idea that blind individuals should not be expected to do the same kind of independent information seeking that sighted people do, and most often succeed in getting it and proceeding accordingly. Yes, there are the users who are "senior and skittish" (and those exist for the sighted world, too) but that doesn't describe the majority of the PC user base. And even those who are "senior and skittish" need to be taught how to be more independent and confident in being so, whether they're blind or not. But on any group where I participate, any intimation that blind people should not be expected to engage in precisely the kind of information seeking and problem solving that sighted people do is going to be met with a big, "Hell to the no!," from me. (And the Gleeks out there can hear the echoes of Amber Riley in the character of Mercedes Jones saying that phrase). It's an excuse that needed to die years ago. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. ~ John Rogers |
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On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 10:50 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I wish OE would die- In actuality, it has. There are only hacks and a couple of "semi-legit" (in that Microsoft has never shut them down) third party maintained variants. And the user base is minuscule. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. ~ John Rogers |
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Gene
I wasn't taking a position on whether people should use it, but I
think the reasons I discussed account in part for why people still
do. As far as rearranging headers is concerned, if you don't use
NVDA, you have to use drag and drop to do that and header order is
one objection people have to Thunderbird.
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Adding first letter navigation to Thunderbird, using the Thunderbird add-on is one of those things a lot of blind people probably wouldn't think to search for. Gene On 10/27/2022 10:23 AM, Brian Vogel wrote: On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 11:13 AM, Gene wrote: |
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On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 12:14 PM, Gene wrote:
Adding first letter navigation to Thunderbird, using the Thunderbird add-on is one of those things a lot of blind people probably wouldn't think to search for.- Why? The first thing I do, and many people I know do, when we need or want something as far as a "tech tweak" to something we're using, particularly for restoring functionality that's somehow disappeared, is to web search on it. The results on this search on [Thunderbird first letter navigation] gives you exactly what you need to get it back (with NVDA) in the first 3 results. I have been harping on the fact that it is ridiculous that in the blind community this kind of action not routinely being taken, before ever turning to any group you might be a member of, to get information is very simply unacceptable. This is how the entire world has been working for decades now, and remarkably well overall, I might add. If you (the generic you) have a need for information and you aren't "going to Google it" (or use the search engine of your choosing) as your first step, then you need to start doing so - now. No excuses why you can't. It's not about can't, it's about won't, and that should not be anyone else's problem - ever. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. ~ John Rogers |
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Outlook has first letter nav, you can have profiles, those would be akin to identities in outlook destress. It even has a calendar which I don’t use often, if at all. I can do signatures and I have a repair utility which has fixed corrupted data in outlook, used it when my folders went poo poo.
From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2022 8:13 AM To: chat@nvda.groups.io Subject: Re: [chat] End of Windows 7 and 8 Chrome support
I know that one thing people like about Outlook Express is that it had identities. I don't know enough about identities to discuss them but my understanding is that e-mail programs usually don't have them any longer. On 10/27/2022 9:28 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
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On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 12:22 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
I have been harping on the fact that it is ridiculous that in the blind community this kind of action not routinely being taken, before ever turning to any group you might be a member of, to get information is very simply unacceptable.- Screwed up that sentence when I was trying to rearrange it. Boiled down to short phrases: 1. Web searching is a fundamental skill at all users in 2022 must have, at least at a basic level. 2. It's unacceptable to excuse a blind person for failing to do web searches. 3. It's acceptable to give grief to someone where it's awfully clear that they have not lifted a cyber-finger to find information on their own before imposing on the time of hundreds to over a thousand people. Groups such as the NVDA group, JAWS Group, Windows Access with Screen Readers, etc., are not anyone's personal Q & A local for commonly available information. And giving people the pass when they ask questions that have been asked and answered, hundreds of times, and where that information can be found with ease is unacceptable, too. There has existed netiquette that gets "given a pass" far too often on blind-tech groups, and it's not doing anyone any favors. It should apply here just as it has everywhere else for decades, because visual status has virtually nothing to do with it in almost every case. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. ~ John Rogers |
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On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 12:25 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
first letter nav- Seems to be sneaking into any number of Windows venues where it once was not available. It's always worth trying. I've known it to be available in Outlook for a very long time, as well as File Explorer. I was working with a client on Monday who is not a screen reader user (yet, but probably will eventually become one) who I'm teaching to use Windows 11 primarily via the keyboard since her vision varies too much to make the use of the mouse reliable. We'd used first letter nav in File Explorer, and right now I can't remember for the life of me what it was we were using where she asked whether first letter nav would work (and where I'd never used it). I told her to try it and, lo and behold!, it worked. Now at my next session I need to note where that was, although my general reply to questions about whether first letter nav works in any given context is now going to be, "Try it and you'll have your answer." -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. ~ John Rogers |
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Gene
I think we are discussing a general question but I think, on
considering what we are discussing, that there are two separate
questions.
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You are talking about more knowledgeable computer users. I think there are many people who don't do that or not consistently and I think many people, who don't know much about add-ons, maybe little or nothing, assume that if a program doesn't do something, it doesn't. But the other question is that since it is likely that the small number of people who do use Outlook Express are among the more knowledgeable users, less knowledgeable users wouldn't even know the program is still around, why do more knowledgeable users continue to use it. That would be interesting to find out. Gene On 10/27/2022 11:22 AM, Brian Vogel
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On Thu, Oct 27, 2022 at 12:14 PM, Gene wrote: |
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