Excess Thunderbird verbosity returns
If this were just a problem concerning Thunderbird, I would have sent this message to the chat list.-
You did send the message to the Chat Subgroup.
--
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.
~ Mark Twain
--
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.
~ Mark Twain
If this were just a problem concerning Thunderbird, I would have sent this message to the chat list.-
You did send the message to the Chat Subgroup.
--
Brian
- Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build
19044
Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.
~ Mark Twain
--
Brian
- Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build
19044
Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.
~ Mark Twain
I wasn’t sure. I don’t know what other screen-readers do-
Gene,
I say the following as a compliment: I simply assume you've done your homework.
In a case like this one, that would mean doing quick and dirty comparisons with Narrator and/or JAWS just to see if the behavior is consistent. If it is, the issue likely lies with Thunderbird (or whatever application or Windows feature), but if it isn't it strongly suggests the screen reader where it happens.
--
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.
~ Mark Twain
I wasn’t sure. I don’t know what other screen-readers do-
Gene,
I say the following as a compliment: I simply assume you've done your homework.
In a case like this one, that would mean doing quick and dirty comparisons with Narrator and/or JAWS just to see if the behavior is consistent. If it is, the issue likely lies with Thunderbird (or whatever application or Windows feature), but if it isn't it strongly suggests the screen reader where it happens.
--
Brian
- Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build
19044
Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.
~ Mark Twain
I wasn’t sure. I don’t know what other screen-readers do-
Gene,
I say the following as a compliment: I simply assume you've done your homework.
In a case like this one, that would mean doing quick and dirty comparisons with Narrator and/or JAWS just to see if the behavior is consistent. If it is, the issue likely lies with Thunderbird (or whatever application or Windows feature), but if it isn't it strongly suggests the screen reader where it happens.
--
Brian
- Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build
19044
Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.
~ Mark Twain
Its been a little over a day since I began this thread. It appears that since no one has said they have or find the excess verbosity annoying, that people may generally not experience it or if they do, it is not enough that they find it annoying.
It may be that I experienced some of it because I am using a copy
of the program I hadn't used in months and it was downloading a
lot of message headers over time. The old copy I had been using
developed some sort of problem and could no longer be used.
Perhaps that slowed the program a little and allowed me to hear
verbosity people generally don't.
On a related subject, my experience and the discussion in this thread reminds me that NVDA still lacks the ability to stop speech from aggressive ARIA regions, and it should, so a poorly designed web site in that regard can be dealt with.
Gene
I’ll add that I’ve hardly used JAWS for years and my very old demo does the few things I want so I never upgraded. Since I’m getting a new computer, I might as well satisfy my curiosity at the same time as I do so regarding Windows 10 as well.Gene-----Original Message-----From: GeneSent: Thursday, January 06, 2022 3:48 PMSubject: Re: [chat] Excess Thunderbird verbosity returnsThank you.I’ll be getting a Windows 10 computer, I hope within a few weeks but I haven’t placed a current version of JAWS on my Windows 7 machine. Perhaps I should have clarified that I haven’t tested other screen-readers. I’ll have a current JAWS and NVDA and Narrator, of course, on the new machine. I hadn’t considered upgrading my very old JAWS demo on this machine.Gene-----Original Message-----From: Brian VogelSent: Thursday, January 06, 2022 3:38 PMSubject: Re: [chat] Excess Thunderbird verbosity returnsOn Thu, Jan 6, 2022 at 02:32 PM, Gene wrote:
I wasn’t sure. I don’t know what other screen-readers do-
Gene,
I say the following as a compliment: I simply assume you've done your homework.
In a case like this one, that would mean doing quick and dirty comparisons with Narrator and/or JAWS just to see if the behavior is consistent. If it is, the issue likely lies with Thunderbird (or whatever application or Windows feature), but if it isn't it strongly suggests the screen reader where it happens.
--
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.
~ Mark Twain
On a related subject, my experience and the discussion in this thread reminds me that NVDA still lacks the ability to stop speech from aggressive ARIA regions, and it should, so a poorly designed web site in that regard can be dealt with.-
Gene,
What follows is a semi-criticism. You come up with very good points like this, and it is a good one, not infrequently and offer them here or on the main group. But the big question is, do you go to the NVDA GitHub page to check if an existing issue is there for a given thing, and if it is, then add a comment on it, and if it isn't, create an issue?
These forums are not an effective way to communicate issues to the NVDA developers. End users have the ability to directly communicate to the development team through a mechanism designed for just that.
All of the above being said, perhaps you do and already have. But I have almost never, possibly actually never, seen you mention having looked at NVDA GitHub with regard to the issues you present. If you're not doing so, you need to add this to your skill set.
Creating an Issue in GitHub for NVDA
MS-Word Fillable Form for an NVDA Bug Report Including Pre and Post Filling-Out Instructions
MS-Word Fillable Form for an NVDA Bug Report Including Only Post Filling-Out Instructions
How to Unprotect a Completed Fillable Word Form so the Entire Document Can Be Copied
--Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.
~ Mark Twain
On a related subject, my experience and the discussion in this thread reminds me that NVDA still lacks the ability to stop speech from aggressive ARIA regions, and it should, so a poorly designed web site in that regard can be dealt with.-
Gene,
What follows is a semi-criticism. You come up with very good points like this, and it is a good one, not infrequently and offer them here or on the main group. But the big question is, do you go to the NVDA GitHub page to check if an existing issue is there for a given thing, and if it is, then add a comment on it, and if it isn't, create an issue?
These forums are not an effective way to communicate issues to the NVDA developers. End users have the ability to directly communicate to the development team through a mechanism designed for just that.
All of the above being said, perhaps you do and already have. But I have almost never, possibly actually never, seen you mention having looked at NVDA GitHub with regard to the issues you present. If you're not doing so, you need to add this to your skill set.
Creating an Issue in GitHub for NVDA
MS-Word Fillable Form for an NVDA Bug Report Including Pre and Post Filling-Out Instructions
MS-Word Fillable Form for an NVDA Bug Report Including Only Post Filling-Out Instructions
How to Unprotect a Completed Fillable Word Form so the Entire Document Can Be Copied
--Brian
- Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build
19044
Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.
~ Mark Twain
I was making the comment as a comment, not because I expect developers to follow the chat list.-
OK. I can't argue with you about your intent.
The point I'm trying to make is if you actually want to have any hope of the changes you talk about actually occurring, you (any you, not just you, Gene) need to get the basic skills for taking a quick look-see at existing NVDA issues in GitHub and commenting on same if something exists already, or creating a new issue if it doesn't.
You are far from the only person I've seen making "change request" comments such as yours. What I said above is my standard reply to those, as some (particularly the new to these groups) are under the misapprehension that they are monitored by the folks at NVAccess with regularity and careful scrutiny. They're not.
You can only get what you ask for when you ask correctly, and not necessarily even then. But at least the request is "on record" where it needs to be in order to eventually get folded into development priorities, if it ever does.
--
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.
~ Mark Twain
I don't have that problem with ThunderBird.
I went into account settings and preferences and unchecked those notivations.
Then I went into the menus and unchecked status for both the folders and open email.
now I only get the sound letting me know there is new email.
Learn your software and what it can do.
If this were just a problem concerning Thunderbird, I would have sent this message to the chat list. But aside from the Thunderbird problem, I think NVDA should have the ability to stop this sort of verbosity, wherever it comes from.I would like my observations about Thunderbird behavior with NVDA since the latest version to be confirmed or disconfirmed by others.It should be made abundantly clear to Thunderbird developers that the excess verbosity they are once again imposing is not desirable nor necessary. And this time, it is being done in a different way. When the status bar is not shown, the verbosity remains. When a message opens, if there is time before NVDA starts reading it, the word done is spoken. yesterday, when I was using a new copy of Thunderbird portable, being a new copy using IMAP and downloading a lot of mail from the GMail server, my use of the program was constantly interrupted with announcements of how many messages were being downloaded. The verbosity doesn’t seem to be as intrusive or occur as often as before but there is a recurring problem among developers that needs to be dealt with.NVDA appears to be improperly vulnerable to excess verbosity, improperly imposed by program designers and web site designers. As far as I know, there is still no stop Aria (spelling) setting. I have no idea how the status line speech was forced in NVDA nor now what is forcing speech. I would suggest NVDA developers find out and either make default settings or user definable settings to control such speech. I’m not saying whether they should be default or user definable. I am not presuming which should be done. But there needs to be a way to stop unnecessary and unwanted verbosity imposed by developers.Gene
I don't have that problem with ThunderBird.
I went into account settings and preferences and unchecked those notivations.
Then I went into the menus and unchecked status for both the folders and open email.
now I only get the sound letting me know there is new email.
Learn your software and what it can do.
If this were just a problem concerning Thunderbird, I would have sent this message to the chat list. But aside from the Thunderbird problem, I think NVDA should have the ability to stop this sort of verbosity, wherever it comes from.I would like my observations about Thunderbird behavior with NVDA since the latest version to be confirmed or disconfirmed by others.It should be made abundantly clear to Thunderbird developers that the excess verbosity they are once again imposing is not desirable nor necessary. And this time, it is being done in a different way. When the status bar is not shown, the verbosity remains. When a message opens, if there is time before NVDA starts reading it, the word done is spoken. yesterday, when I was using a new copy of Thunderbird portable, being a new copy using IMAP and downloading a lot of mail from the GMail server, my use of the program was constantly interrupted with announcements of how many messages were being downloaded. The verbosity doesn’t seem to be as intrusive or occur as often as before but there is a recurring problem among developers that needs to be dealt with.NVDA appears to be improperly vulnerable to excess verbosity, improperly imposed by program designers and web site designers. As far as I know, there is still no stop Aria (spelling) setting. I have no idea how the status line speech was forced in NVDA nor now what is forcing speech. I would suggest NVDA developers find out and either make default settings or user definable settings to control such speech. I’m not saying whether they should be default or user definable. I am not presuming which should be done. But there needs to be a way to stop unnecessary and unwanted verbosity imposed by developers.Gene
Howard
I don't have that problem with ThunderBird.
I went into account settings and preferences and unchecked those notivations.
Then I went into the menus and unchecked status for both the folders and open email.
now I only get the sound letting me know there is new email.
Learn your software and what it can do.
On 1/6/2022 11:03 AM, Gene wrote:
If this were just a problem concerning Thunderbird, I would have sent this message to the chat list. But aside from the Thunderbird problem, I think NVDA should have the ability to stop this sort of verbosity, wherever it comes from.I would like my observations about Thunderbird behavior with NVDA since the latest version to be confirmed or disconfirmed by others.It should be made abundantly clear to Thunderbird developers that the excess verbosity they are once again imposing is not desirable nor necessary. And this time, it is being done in a different way. When the status bar is not shown, the verbosity remains. When a message opens, if there is time before NVDA starts reading it, the word done is spoken. yesterday, when I was using a new copy of Thunderbird portable, being a new copy using IMAP and downloading a lot of mail from the GMail server, my use of the program was constantly interrupted with announcements of how many messages were being downloaded. The verbosity doesn’t seem to be as intrusive or occur as often as before but there is a recurring problem among developers that needs to be dealt with.NVDA appears to be improperly vulnerable to excess verbosity, improperly imposed by program designers and web site designers. As far as I know, there is still no stop Aria (spelling) setting. I have no idea how the status line speech was forced in NVDA nor now what is forcing speech. I would suggest NVDA developers find out and either make default settings or user definable settings to control such speech. I’m not saying whether they should be default or user definable. I am not presuming which should be done. But there needs to be a way to stop unnecessary and unwanted verbosity imposed by developers.Gene
See if this stops the message.
Open the view menu, alt v.
You should be on tool bars when the menu opens. If so, press enter. If not move to tool bars and press enter.
You are in a sub menu. Down arrow to status bar. If it says checked after you hear status bar, press enter. The menus will close and the status bar will no longer be shown. See if that stops the message.
If you want to have the status bar shown again, follow the same
procedure.
Gene
I have two machines running Thunderbird. On one of them: when reading a message, I press delete to dump the message and go to the next; the next message starts to read and is interrupted by announcinng that the previous messages is moved to trash. . Don't know why or what to change.
Howard
On 1/8/2022 7:38 AM, Tim M wrote:
I don't have that problem with ThunderBird.
I went into account settings and preferences and unchecked those notivations.
Then I went into the menus and unchecked status for both the folders and open email.
now I only get the sound letting me know there is new email.
Learn your software and what it can do.
On 1/6/2022 11:03 AM, Gene wrote:
If this were just a problem concerning Thunderbird, I would have sent this message to the chat list. But aside from the Thunderbird problem, I think NVDA should have the ability to stop this sort of verbosity, wherever it comes from.I would like my observations about Thunderbird behavior with NVDA since the latest version to be confirmed or disconfirmed by others.It should be made abundantly clear to Thunderbird developers that the excess verbosity they are once again imposing is not desirable nor necessary. And this time, it is being done in a different way. When the status bar is not shown, the verbosity remains. When a message opens, if there is time before NVDA starts reading it, the word done is spoken. yesterday, when I was using a new copy of Thunderbird portable, being a new copy using IMAP and downloading a lot of mail from the GMail server, my use of the program was constantly interrupted with announcements of how many messages were being downloaded. The verbosity doesn’t seem to be as intrusive or occur as often as before but there is a recurring problem among developers that needs to be dealt with.NVDA appears to be improperly vulnerable to excess verbosity, improperly imposed by program designers and web site designers. As far as I know, there is still no stop Aria (spelling) setting. I have no idea how the status line speech was forced in NVDA nor now what is forcing speech. I would suggest NVDA developers find out and either make default settings or user definable settings to control such speech. I’m not saying whether they should be default or user definable. I am not presuming which should be done. But there needs to be a way to stop unnecessary and unwanted verbosity imposed by developers.Gene
I don't use Thunderbird as my main e-mail program but while I was
trying to see if my proposed solution would work, I found the
following behavior. After I delete a message, using just delete,
not shift delete, I get a message in a little while saying one
message deleted from all mail or almost those exact words. I
might get the same message using shift delete but I haven't
checked yet. This message interrupts reading of an e-mail if I'm
reading one. Reading automatically resumes after the announcement
if I'm using read to end.
I tested this with the status line set not to be displayed and I
still hear the announcement. Unfortunately, I believe you will
still hear yours.
It would be useful if someone would test with JAWS who hears
messages using NVDA. I will be getting a Windows 10 machine, I
believe in a few weeks but it isn't worth updating my old JAWS,
which I almost never use on this machine.
See if this stops the message.
Open the view menu, alt v.
You should be on tool bars when the menu opens. If so, press enter. If not move to tool bars and press enter.
You are in a sub menu. Down arrow to status bar. If it says checked after you hear status bar, press enter. The menus will close and the status bar will no longer be shown. See if that stops the message.
If you want to have the status bar shown again, follow the same procedure.
Gene
On 1/8/2022 9:21 AM, Howard Traxler wrote:
I have two machines running Thunderbird. On one of them: when reading a message, I press delete to dump the message and go to the next; the next message starts to read and is interrupted by announcinng that the previous messages is moved to trash. . Don't know why or what to change.
Howard
On 1/8/2022 7:38 AM, Tim M wrote:
I don't have that problem with ThunderBird.
I went into account settings and preferences and unchecked those notivations.
Then I went into the menus and unchecked status for both the folders and open email.
now I only get the sound letting me know there is new email.
Learn your software and what it can do.
On 1/6/2022 11:03 AM, Gene wrote:
If this were just a problem concerning Thunderbird, I would have sent this message to the chat list. But aside from the Thunderbird problem, I think NVDA should have the ability to stop this sort of verbosity, wherever it comes from.I would like my observations about Thunderbird behavior with NVDA since the latest version to be confirmed or disconfirmed by others.It should be made abundantly clear to Thunderbird developers that the excess verbosity they are once again imposing is not desirable nor necessary. And this time, it is being done in a different way. When the status bar is not shown, the verbosity remains. When a message opens, if there is time before NVDA starts reading it, the word done is spoken. yesterday, when I was using a new copy of Thunderbird portable, being a new copy using IMAP and downloading a lot of mail from the GMail server, my use of the program was constantly interrupted with announcements of how many messages were being downloaded. The verbosity doesn’t seem to be as intrusive or occur as often as before but there is a recurring problem among developers that needs to be dealt with.NVDA appears to be improperly vulnerable to excess verbosity, improperly imposed by program designers and web site designers. As far as I know, there is still no stop Aria (spelling) setting. I have no idea how the status line speech was forced in NVDA nor now what is forcing speech. I would suggest NVDA developers find out and either make default settings or user definable settings to control such speech. I’m not saying whether they should be default or user definable. I am not presuming which should be done. But there needs to be a way to stop unnecessary and unwanted verbosity imposed by developers.Gene
I will be getting a Windows 10 machine,-
If you're purchasing new (or just purchasing, period) and are getting a machine with an Intel i-series processor, make sure that you get 8th generation or newer. All of the 8th generation have a dash number in the 8000-8999 range. Ninth gen is 9000-9999.
Only 8th generation and newer Intel processors can be updated to Windows 11, and with only 3 years left on Windows 10 until it sunsets I'd be mightily annoyed were I to buy a new machine now that can't be updated to Windows 11 when I want to or need to. And, eventually, we'll all need to.
--
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.
~ Mark Twain
I was going to get one from Computers for the Blind. I'm sure the processor will be older. Its good to have the information. I'll probably still get one from there because the price is low enough that even getting another one later shouldn't cost me more cumulatively. But what I do later will depend in part on how I find this one.
Gene
On Sat, Jan 8, 2022 at 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
I will be getting a Windows 10 machine,-
If you're purchasing new (or just purchasing, period) and are getting a machine with an Intel i-series processor, make sure that you get 8th generation or newer. All of the 8th generation have a dash number in the 8000-8999 range. Ninth gen is 9000-9999.
Only 8th generation and newer Intel processors can be updated to Windows 11, and with only 3 years left on Windows 10 until it sunsets I'd be mightily annoyed were I to buy a new machine now that can't be updated to Windows 11 when I want to or need to. And, eventually, we'll all need to.
--
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.
~ Mark Twain
My dear friend, Phyllis, who passed away just about a year ago got several machines, over time, from Computers for the Blind and they were perfectly fine for day-to-day use. It is almost certain that you will get one with a 7th gen or older processor from them, but not 100% certain. It all depends on who's donated to them and how many machines. Lots of businesses change out machines every 2 to 3 years, and if they got a big batch from a situation like that it could be a newer processor.
If you liked Windows 7, the learning curve for Windows 10 is not long and shallow. You tend to pick up what you need to know relatively quickly as some of the "things I used to do this way" need to be done again, but now "that way."
As far as screen readers and application programs go, if they're installed/desktop applications rather than Windows Universal apps, you'll notice zero difference.
Brian
--
Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.
~ Mark Twain