Icons and text
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Gene
The discussion raises a number of questions for me. Does what we are discussing mean that in a lot of programs now, when we go through menus, there are only icons as far as what a sighted person sees? It appears so. And if that is the case, do program designers have to make the icons accessible to the screen-reader or do screen-readers have some sort of code dictionaries that translate icons into speech?
When I look at the menus in Thunderbird, for example, if someone dealing with accessibility didn't make the titles such as file, edit, etc. accessible, would a screen-reader not say anything when you move to such icons? In short, are we a lot more dependent on intentional accessibility than in the old days in such cases? Also, let's say I'm talking with a sighted person and I say that options is in the tools menu. Perhaps the sighted person would have no idea what I'm talking about when I say tools menu. That means it might be harder to talk with sighted people about working with programs than I thought. Also, what sort of icon would represent something like an edit menu or a view menu. I don't see what symbols would get such more abstract ideas across. Gene |
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Gene,
You are asking good questions that are extremely difficult to answer succinctly. But one thing I can say is that you need to separate the idea of menus from the idea of controls. Menus are, and always have been, primarily text based things. These days, because icons have become so ubiquitous for controls (e.g. buttons - particularly menu buttons, and things like Settings) they are also sometimes creeping into menus in addition to text because they are visual signals to sighted users who have become accustomed to icons only. It's kinda weird in that controls were once labeled with text, moved to icons plus text, then moved to icons only while menus were originally text, have mostly stayed text, but also now have some combination of icons plus text because the icons are immediately meaningful literally on sight to those used to them in other contexts. Thunderbird is an interesting case because it's been primarily menu driven long past the time when that has fallen out of vogue. The Thunderbird menus are text and nothing but text. Yet, with the latest release, they are now making steps into the icon only era with Spaces Toolbar, which is new, and akin to what Outlook has been doing for years in terms of being able to switch the thing you're looking at (the space, in Thunderbird terms) between Mail, Calendar, Tasks, etc. In Outlook, CTRL + a number row number is what switches what you're looking at whereas in Thunderbird 102.X it's ALT + number row number (1 - Mail, 2 - Address Book, 3 - Calendar, 4 - Tasks, 5 - Chat). Sighted users absolutely know what menus are and what they look like because menus are and have always been a primarily text-based entity. The icons that are creeping in for some applications are those (e.g., gear icon for settings, with the word Settings next to it in the Edge main menu) that have very high recognition value because they are used in so many contexts to mean precisely the same thing. If I, as a sighted person, see the gear icon I don't have to read down the menu items to find Settings, the presence of the icon tells me that it's virtually certain that the text that accompanies it will be Settings. It is well-nigh impossible to represent all the things that show up in menus, as commands, etc., as icons, so I doubt that text menus will ever go away. But there are certain icons that are likely to creep into menus that aren't there yet to serve as visual "zero in instantly" targets. If I remember correctly, you have never been able to see. This makes it difficult to make you understand just how instantaneous visual recognition is for standard icons, and that's not only on computers. In every nation that I know of, regardless of the text on the sign, stop signs are now red octagons with the word "stop" in the local language in the middle. I can be driving anywhere in the world and do not have to know that what's in the middle of that sign says "stop" because the iconography is so universal. The same applies, but not via icon, to red lights meaning stop, yellow meaning proceed with caution, and green meaning go the world over. No one who has learned to drive, anywhere, needs to be re-taught how traffic lights work because the meaning of the colors has become universal and is instantly understood when seen. And visual recognition, particularly that of the fully automatic sort that comes from constant repetition, occurs much more rapidly than verbal processing from reading does. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. ~ John Rogers |
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By the way, Ribbons are primarily composed as icons. There are a few instances of icon plus text, and even fewer instances of text only. And a lot of that is because the controls on a given ribbon fall into certain classes that are easy to represent graphically without words.
As a simple example from the Word Home Ribbon, Font Group, it's simple to represent bold as a bold capital B on a button, Italic as an italic capital I, Underline as an underlined capital U, strikethrough as the letters abc with a line through them, superscript as the letter X with a tiny 2 raised above the right side (and lowered on the right for subscript). None of these things require text because their icon, or graphic representation, makes it immediately obvious to a sighted user precisely what they mean and what they do. But they're announced to a screen reader user landing on them based on the function, and that text is not seen, but is a hidden thing that's there and exposed specifically for screen reader use. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. ~ John Rogers |
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Gene
Is the same thing true in dialogs? I would think that a lot of what
is in dialogs would have to be text. But what sort of cases, if
any, would information not be written?
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Your recollection is correct that I have never seen but I think a good analogy to what you are talking about is something like how quickly you can recognize a familiar voice or all sorts of familiar sounds. A dog bark, for example is instantly recognizable. The ability to instantly recognize different things with different senses probably has something or a good deal to do with survival value. It would have been important to recognize certain sounds or kinds of sounds when people were hunter/gathers and at the same time, it would have been important to immediately recognize certain visual information, and what each sense would immediately recognize might well largely differ because of the information conveyed that was most important to survival by different senses. Gene On 10/23/2022 10:11 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
Gene, |
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Gene, Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. ~ John Rogers |
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Gene
That's very interesting. It sounds as though if provision weren't
made, we might hear something like button but no description.
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Gene On 10/23/2022 10:19 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
By the way, Ribbons are primarily composed as icons. There are a few instances of icon plus text, and even fewer instances of text only. And a lot of that is because the controls on a given ribbon fall into certain classes that are easy to represent graphically without words. |
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Gene
Yes, there is no way to know what the experience is like in terms of
the sense you don't have. I was saying that the experience of
immediate recognition occurs with other senses, though the way it is
experienced is different and can't be explained if you don't have
the sense.
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Gene On 10/23/2022 10:58 PM, Brian Vogel
wrote:
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Gene
Are tool tips used less than they used to be?
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Gene On 10/23/2022 11:39 PM, Gene wrote:
Yes, there is no way to know what the experience is like in terms of the sense you don't have. I was saying that the experience of immediate recognition occurs with other senses, though the way it is experienced is different and can't be explained if you don't have the sense. |
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Brian's Mail list account
OK, when I could see, I always found icons to be hard to understand in instruction manuals for washing machines etc, and the same was true of those often used in software's toolbars, which was where I first encountered them Now I fully realise that for any use, an icon, once learned saves a lot of words. Its smaller so buttons in washing machines can have it, and it means no matter where in the world you are selling to, its one thing you do not have to make different in each country. I'm guessing this is the same on software as well.
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However it seems unusual to be able to find a key for such symbols back then, and now of course people talk of wrenches, Gear and Hamburgers is not helping us, in particular at all. I think this is why on windows, one of the first settings we ever change is show file types, since the silly little icons means nothing, often not even to the screenreader, and worse, even if it does, when talking to a sighted but tech non savy person, they have no concept of file types and what they are. Its odd that there are descriptions on Imogees out there, but seemingly not the default icons. Brian -- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...> To: <chat@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2022 4:11 AM Subject: Re: [chat] Icons and text Gene, You are asking good questions that are extremely difficult to answer succinctly. But one thing I can say is that you need to separate the idea of menus from the idea of controls. Menus are, and always have been, primarily text based things. These days, because icons have become so ubiquitous for controls (e.g. buttons - particularly menu buttons, and things like Settings) they are also sometimes creeping into menus in addition to text because they are visual signals to sighted users who have become accustomed to icons only. It's kinda weird in that controls were once labeled with text, moved to icons plus text, then moved to icons only while menus were originally text, have mostly stayed text, but also now have some combination of icons plus text because the icons are immediately meaningful literally on sight to those used to them in other contexts. Thunderbird is an interesting case because it's been primarily menu driven long past the time when that has fallen out of vogue. The Thunderbird menus are text and nothing but text. Yet, with the latest release, they are now making steps into the icon only era with Spaces Toolbar, which is new, and akin to what Outlook has been doing for years in terms of being able to switch the thing you're looking at (the space, in Thunderbird terms) between Mail, Calendar, Tasks, etc. In Outlook, CTRL + a number row number is what switches what you're looking at whereas in Thunderbird 102.X it's ALT + number row number (1 - Mail, 2 - Address Book, 3 - Calendar, 4 - Tasks, 5 - Chat). Sighted users absolutely know what menus are and what they look like because menus are and have always been a primarily text-based entity. The icons that are creeping in for some applications are those (e.g., gear icon for settings, with the word Settings next to it in the Edge main menu) that have very high recognition value because they are used in so many contexts to mean precisely the same thing. If I, as a sighted person, see the gear icon I don't have to read down the menu items to find Settings, the presence of the icon tells me that it's virtually certain that the text that accompanies it will be Settings. It is well-nigh impossible to represent all the things that show up in menus, as commands, etc., as icons, so I doubt that text menus will ever go away. But there are certain icons that are likely to creep into menus that aren't there yet to serve as visual "zero in instantly" targets. If I remember correctly, you have never been able to see. This makes it difficult to make you understand just how instantaneous visual recognition is for standard icons, and that's not only on computers. In every nation that I know of, regardless of the text on the sign, stop signs are now red octagons with the word "stop" in the local language in the middle. I can be driving anywhere in the world and do not have to know that what's in the middle of that sign says "stop" because the iconography is so universal. The same applies, but not via icon, to red lights meaning stop, yellow meaning proceed with caution, and green meaning go the world over. No one who has learned to drive, anywhere, needs to be re-taught how traffic lights work because the meaning of the colors has become universal and is instantly understood when seen. And visual recognition, particularly that of the fully automatic sort that comes from constant repetition, occurs much more rapidly than verbal processing from reading does. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 *There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.* ~ John Rogers |
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Brian's Mail list account
You might have hit on the reason why some of us cannot grasp ribbons. Those like myself who abstractise, if that is a word, icons, cannot really line up the actual meanings with the various methods of getting to them. To me, it looks just like a lazy way to pile what used to be menus, property sheets and toolbars into a huge tree of disconnected bits. I suspect if I were still sighted when they arrived, I might be far more understanding of their use.
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Brian -- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...> To: <chat@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2022 4:19 AM Subject: Re: [chat] Icons and text By the way, Ribbons are primarily composed as icons. There are a few instances of icon plus text, and even fewer instances of text only. And a lot of that is because the controls on a given ribbon fall into certain classes that are easy to represent graphically without words. As a simple example from the Word Home Ribbon, Font Group, it's simple to represent bold as a bold capital B on a button, Italic as an italic capital I, Underline as an underlined capital U, strikethrough as the letters abc with a line through them, superscript as the letter X with a tiny 2 raised above the right side (and lowered on the right for subscript). None of these things require text because their icon, or graphic representation, makes it immediately obvious to a sighted user precisely what they mean and what they do. But they're announced to a screen reader user landing on them based on the function, and that text is not seen, but is a hidden thing that's there and exposed specifically for screen reader use. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 *There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.* ~ John Rogers |
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Brian's Mail list account
I once had a computer, many many years ago, which had the helpful dialogue, No keyboard detected, key y to continue. Thank goodness we are past those days.
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Brian -- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...> To: <chat@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2022 4:58 AM Subject: Re: [chat] Icons and text Gene, You pick excellent, and valid, analogies as far as the value of recognition of instantly identifiable sounds. The point I was trying to make is you really can't explain the same mechanism, in any meaningful sense, to someone who has never been able to see any more than you can explain "red" or "what the Mona Lisa looks like" to someone who has never been able to see. Some things are strictly sense-based and no analogies come close to capturing what the reality is in a different sense. The concept is certainly transferable, but the ability to explain the actual experience is not. I've said before, and I'll say again, that trying to explain things like "red" to someone who's never seen is analogous to trying to explain "the sound of a dog bark" to someone who's never heard. You simply cannot do it in any way that communicates the lived experience of it. Dialog boxes are entirely text based, in my experience, as far as the messages go and the controls like "OK," "Close," "Cancel," etc. You may get an icon included in the box that gives you a sense of how significant something is, where that's applicable. Things like warnings from your security suite usually include some red icon for very serious issues, yellow for things that deserve a look so you can determine whether you think they're serious or not, and green when things are just fine. But there is always explanatory text in a dialog box. I say the following not to be snarky, but that's exactly how a dialog box got its name - it contains dialog (well, monologue, really, since you can't argue with it). -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 *There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.* ~ John Rogers |
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Brian's Mail list account
So is there any mileage in trying to create specific sound icons do you think?
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Brian -- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...> To: <chat@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2022 5:39 AM Subject: Re: [chat] Icons and text Yes, there is no way to know what the experience is like in terms of the |
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Brian's Mail list account
Well, I say yes, at least by third party software. I like tool tips since in files lists you can often here a lot more details about a file that way.
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Brian -- bglists@... Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media) Please address personal E-mail to:- briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff' in the display name field. ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...> To: <chat@nvda.groups.io> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2022 5:59 AM Subject: Re: [chat] Icons and text Are tool tips used less than they used to be? |
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Gene
If you tab through ribbons, you will see that things are organized into groups. In a group, things are related by category. The text used to expose icons is usually very clear.
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Take Wordpad, which is a simple program and everyone has it for demonstration purposes. Open the ribbons and type h to make sure you are on the home ribbon so everyone is working in the same place. Start tabbing. You will move through a few buttons that are not part of any specific ribbon. Then you will get to different groupings. One of them is font grouping. As you tab through it, you will see that things in it have something to do with how text is displayed related to fonts or characteristics of how text is displayed. Italics, for example is in the grouping. It is related to font because if you italicize, you are changing the orientation of the font. The first grouping is paste. Although items in that grouping are not literally all concerned with pasting, they are all related. Paste is there as well as copy and cut. If you insist on literalism the groupings may not make sense. If you use thinking about associations, they will. And , while menus are organized in ways that don't require as much associative thinking, there are things in menus that make no sense and you just accept them because they are there. Why should find be in the edit menu? When you find something, you are looking for text but you aren't editing anything.Why should options or at times it is called settings be in the tools menu. While it makes a certain amount of sense, changing settings in a program really isn't related to tools, which are generally ways to do things. In Thunderbird, import is in the tools menu. Please explain why it shouldn't be in the file menu or the message menu. It may be better to have it in the tools menu but how much of your satisfaction with menus is that you expect certain things because you learned to expect them? Gene On 10/24/2022 4:10 AM, Brian's Mail list account via groups.io wrote:
You might have hit on the reason why some of us cannot grasp ribbons. Those like myself who abstractise, if that is a word, icons, cannot really line up the actual meanings with the various methods of getting to them. To me, it looks just like a lazy way to pile what used to be menus, property sheets and toolbars into a huge tree of disconnected bits. I suspect if I were still sighted when they arrived, I might be far more understanding of their use. |
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Gene
A further thought about find:
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Find may be used when editing to efficiently move to an item you want to edit and to move to recurrences of that item but it is related to editing somewhat by association, as many things are in ribbons because a lot of the time, you use find for purposes that have nothing to do with editing. Gene On 10/24/2022 5:21 AM, Gene wrote:
If you tab through ribbons, you will see that things are organized into groups. In a group, things are related by category. The text used to expose icons is usually very clear. |
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On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 05:06 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
However it seems unusual to be able to find a key for such symbols back then, and now of course people talk of wrenches, Gear and Hamburgers is not helping us, in particular at all.- And what would that key be? And that's a serious question. This comes back to my oft repeated statement that there are times that there is no substitute for sight. Things that are visual, and icons are visual, would be described in exactly the visual terms you quote if you're trying to help someone who can see locate something. "Gear Icon," etc., is visually meaningful. The "hamburger stack" is a stretch as far as visually meaningful, but once someone is shown what it means by pointing it out, once, it never need be done again. It is meaningless to describe icons to someone who has never (note well: has never) been able to see. Icons are described most accurately in visual terms. Even what some of them mean, e.g., Bold, Italic, Underlined (in the case of word) are abstract categories to someone who's never been able to see. I don't know how you would even try to go about describing an icon to a blind person who's never been able to see. What you can do is discuss what's announced when you land on it in the case of computers and, sometimes, for blind-modified appliances with speech where there would not normally be any. And in the case of a straight appliance, say a washer or dishwasher, tactile markers and/or Braille stickers that allow identification of specific functions are used. But I've certainly never tried myself, nor known anyone who teaches individuals who are blind, who tries to describe the icons used. We discuss the function that pushing here or clicking/activating there will invoke. The use of visual imagery with someone who's never seen in a "teach how to use thing X" context seems both stupid and cruel to me. When working with people who have been fully sighted, things can be at least a bit different, as you can use certain aspects of visual imagery based upon memory. If there is some residual vision, depending on what that is, you can use that, too. If I have clients who can see, say, indistinct blobs of color on a computer screen I will do things like saying, "That blue-green blob is the icon for the Microsoft Edge browser," if that seems to assist in getting the layout of the screen, as currently arranged, more easily. Identifiers that have their primary recognition mechanism in vision are simply not particularly useful if you're blind. They're aimed at a sense that is absent and are very difficult to describe in a way that makes them accessible (in every sense) using other sensory modalities/analogies. I could no sooner try to help you find a wrench icon by telling you what a wrench icon looks like than fly to the moon under the power of my own arms. What I can do is let you know that there exists a wrench icon, and it's used for the tools function, so that if you're working with a sighted newbie you can say to them, open tools with by clicking on the wrench icon because for them that's far more natural, just as using things like screen reader search, elements lists, keyboard shortcuts, is far more natural for you. It's all about the audience and what you're trying to communicate to them that determines the "how" of that communication. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. ~ John Rogers |
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On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 05:10 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
Those like myself who abstractise, if that is a word, icons, cannot really line up the actual meanings with the various methods of getting to them.- And I'm sorry, but that's pure nonsense. The ribbons are menus with a different navigation technique, pure and simple, and with analogous bits that directly translate from menus. A given ribbon as a whole is the menu, the control groups (which you can navigate, but many never learn how) are submenus, and the various bits in a control group are menu items. No one seems to have problems with ALT + Letter Here for getting to a menu or a ribbon, but they get stuck because the idea of using anything other than down arrow/up arrow for traversal is never learned between what are the equivalent of submenus, which is the control group. Mind you, there are things like color pickers that are a mess, but always were a mess regardless of the exact implementation. Gene's written an excellent tutorial on using the Ribbons interface and I've written one myself, too. I have yet to have someone who actually practices the techniques of ribbon navigation, just like they once practiced the techniques of menu navigation, fail to get a grasp in fairly short order. Practice may not make perfect (and it certainly hasn't for me) but it does make "darned good enough for day to day needs" when it comes to the ribbons interface or most other things, for that matter.
-- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. ~ John Rogers |
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Who knows.
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I have not got confused by an icon but on a business setup my uncle who I maintain his systems has gotten caught up on them like you would get caught on a rose bush. He thought that all those messages in his web brouser were security and that the icones were malware because he couldn't understand what they all were actually. As you can imagine he got a system full of malware which I had to remove and I had a chuckle about the icons but yeah its a serious thing. My dad wanders round the screen. An easy procedure is fine but a nice flashy icon can distract him to appear all over the place loading all sorts of stuff and getting himself so tied up that he can no longer find where is up and down. He even forgets what he is doing. I then go back to the system, and untangle him then run the procedure. Of course I can't find where its all gone wrong but then I'm not him obviously. On 24/10/2022 10:16 pm, Brian's Mail list account via groups.io wrote:
So is there any mileage in trying to create specific sound icons do you think? |
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On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 01:09 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
He even forgets what he is doing.- I say this with no snark or disdain, because I had a mother who recently passed who died secondary to the effects of Alzheimer's, but this is the core issue right there. If you have "forgets what they are doing" and, worse, in combination with, "pushes every button without considering anything," you are certain to have an unbelievable mess. And if the individual is in a state where they cannot learn from their mistakes, then this will be a lather, rinse, repeat situation. It's horribly difficult, and anyone who's facing this has my deepest empathy and sympathy. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 19045 There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year-old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. ~ John Rogers |
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Hmmm yeah its only on the computer. I don't know what it is but my dad seems to have a habbit of reading half a screen then reading another half a screen and getting distracted. Its only on the pc though so who knows. His family has a history of that condition you mentioned though.
On 25/10/2022 6:23 am, Brian Vogel
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On Mon, Oct 24, 2022 at 01:09 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote: |
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