----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 2:09 AM
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days

I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say
that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating
system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In Windows, you can
try other screen-readers if the one you generally use doesn't do
something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader
developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.

That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to
develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and
NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers,
there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.

Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a
monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't
realize that that is what they are advocating.

Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?

On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...> wrote:

Hello Mary

I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.


I'm happy to hear it worked for you.

All the best,

Dennis

On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.


Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.


Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.


Mary

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Otten" <maryotten@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 2:24 AM
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days

Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them
costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use
multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that
privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view, daunting
if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that
one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns
regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count
the number of screen readers or other solutions I've used over the past
decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning
curves.


Mary


On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:

I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say
that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main
operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In
Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally use
doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among
screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with
Apple.

That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft
to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with
JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those
screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.

Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a
monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they
don't realize that that is what they are advocating.

Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?

On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark<dennis@...> wrote:

Hello Mary

I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.


I'm happy to hear it worked for you.

All the best,

Dennis

On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.


Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.


Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.


Mary

----- Original Message -----
From: "Governor staten" <govsta@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 2:30 AM
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days

I'd say some of this is not quite accurate. For one, you can buy Jaws
for a hundred a year, and keep getting updates. They have switched to
the subscription model Microsoft uses. As long as you pay, you will keep
getting updates.



------------------------------------------------------------------------


On 8/13/2022 9:24 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them
costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use
multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that
privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view,
daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot
about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of
diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually
remember. I can't count the number of screen readers or other
solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after
all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.


Mary


On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:

I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can
say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main
operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In
Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally
use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among
screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with
Apple.

That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft
to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with
JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those
screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.

Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a
monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they
don't realize that that is what they are advocating.

Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?

On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark<dennis@...> wrote:

Hello Mary

I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.


I'm happy to hear it worked for you.

All the best,

Dennis

On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:
For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.


Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.


Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.


Mary

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Goldfield" <david.goldfield@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 6:37 AM
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days

That’s true. In addition, SuperNova<https://yourdolphin.com/SuperNova> from Dolphin is still being developed so that’s yet one more choice in screen readers. Then again I haven’t yet met one individual, at least in the U.S., who has admitted to using it. It’s something I’ve been meaning to try but with the level of accessibility that I already have with Narrator, JAWS and NVDA I just didn’t have enough motivation.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
[JAWS Certified, 2022]<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>
NVDA Certified Expert<https://certification.nvaccess.org/>

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io<mailto:tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io>
www.DavidGoldfield.org<http://www.DavidGoldfield.org>

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Governor staten
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:30 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days


I'd say some of this is not quite accurate. For one, you can buy Jaws for a hundred a year, and keep getting updates. They have switched to the subscription model Microsoft uses. As long as you pay, you will keep getting updates.





________________________________


On 8/13/2022 9:24 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view, daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count the number of screen readers or other solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.



Mary


On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.

That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.

Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't realize that that is what they are advocating.

Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?

On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...><mailto:dennis@...> wrote:



Hello Mary



I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.





I'm happy to hear it worked for you.



All the best,



Dennis





On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.





Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.





Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.





Mary

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Goldfield" <david.goldfield@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 6:30 AM
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days

Gene, I actually do agree with most of what you’ve written. I would say, though, that the more a user knows about his/her screen reader the more they’ll be able to customize what they hear or read in Braille. You’re right in that you can get away with very little screen reader knowledge in order to navigate Web pages and perform basic editing of documents but the more you know about whatever screen reader you’re using the more you’ll be in control of what you’re reading. It also will help you to deal with Web sites or applications that may not be playing nice out of the box. The same can really be said about any application. I could choose to learn very little about Microsoft Word and with a small amount of knowledge I could perform basic editing tasks. However, if I chose to go beyond the basics I’ll have even more control over what I can do with my document, how I can alter it, present it and correct a variety of issues that I might find with it.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
[JAWS Certified, 2022]<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>
NVDA Certified Expert<https://certification.nvaccess.org/>

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io<mailto:tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io>
www.DavidGoldfield.org<http://www.DavidGoldfield.org>

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 9:56 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days

It depends on what you want to do with a screen-reader. A lot of people use two screen-readers. If you know Windows and Windows programs, that is the structures they use and how to work with them, you can use any screen-reader to do a lot if you know a small number of commands such as read title bar, read current line, and its nice to know how to adjust the speech rate and set punctuation. Read to end is important to know.

Commands for browsing the Internet, that is navigation commands such as h for heading, n for skip blocks of links are quite standardized these days.

And you don't have to own JAWS to benefit from having two screen-readers available. You can use a JAWS demo for times when NVDA doesn't do something or do it well. Many people can use NVDA for pretty much anything.

I've used Window-eyes, NVDA, JAWS, System Access, and I've played with Narrator so I have lots of experience to say what I've said. If you know Windows basics and program structures, which are in many cases the same as Windows structures, menus, dialogs, and in some programs and in some places in Windows ribbons, you can do a lot knowing little about any screen-reader.

It is an advantage to have more than one screen-reader.

For the majority of people, most of the learning done is the structures of Windows and Windows programs. The screen-reader is not a large part of what is learned. Depending on how you use programs, you would learn more or less about a screen-reader.

Gene

On 8/13/2022 8:24 PM, Mary Otten wrote:


Well, you have 2 choices of screen reader on Windows and one of them costs a boatload plus yearly update costs. So you can't exactly use multiple screen readers if you don't want to pay hansomely for that privilege, and the learning curve to learn JAWS is, in my view, daunting if you're starting from scratch. Oh yes, Narrator. I forgot about that one. When you get to be older, there is a law of diminishing returns regarding just how many things you can actually remember. I can't count the number of screen readers or other solutions I've used over the past decades, but I do know that after all that, I'm done with heavy learning curves.



Mary


On 8/13/2022 6:09 PM, Gene wrote:
I don't use a Mac and I can't comment on the interface. But I can say that I wouldn't want to use, as my only, and probably my main operating system, one that limits me to one screen-reader. In Windows, you can try other screen-readers if the one you generally use doesn't do something well. and there is no competition among screen-reader developers to add features and improve performance with Apple.

That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.

Interesting how so many people who complain about Microsoft being a monopoly want it to become a screen-reader monopoly,, even if they don't realize that that is what they are advocating.

Gene
On 8/13/2022 7:34 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

Interesting, Dennis. I thought I was going to be a MacUser by this time. I bought a Mac back in 2009, several operating systems ago, and I thought it was really doing great. But then they made changes to the male program that I didn’t like, I really had very bad luck with PDF files on the Mac, and by the time I old windows XP machine got zapped, I’ve had decided no Mac for me and I stuck with windows. do you still scan books and if so, what scanner are you using and with which windows operating system?

On Aug 13, 2022, at 4:47 PM, Dennis Clark <dennis@...><mailto:dennis@...> wrote:



Hello Mary



I still use Kurzweil for almost everything on my PC. That program alone is the only reason why I still use windows at all instead of moving to the Mac.





I'm happy to hear it worked for you.



All the best,



Dennis





On 8/13/2022 3:04 PM, Mary Otten wrote:

For anybody who used k1000 and still has it around, even though you don't actually scan books any more, think twice before deleting.





Yesterday, I got a pdf file that turned out to be images; I imported it into voice dream reader on my phone, which usually does a decent job with ocr. Not that time. The file turned out absolute junk, just random letters, and it was very short, whereas the actual pdf is 8 or 9 pages. K1000 did not a perfect ocr job, but pretty darned good, more than enough to allow me to understand the text.





Then there was a file that was not an image file at all, but for some reason, it opened in Acrobat reader dc and just read random letters, but K1000 worked perfectly. I have no clue why, but it makes me glad I can still open that program and use it, even though I do not have a desktop scanner any more.





Mary

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Goldfield" <david.goldfield@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 6:23 AM
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days


I think that one reason why Narrator won't gain much ground in the corporate sector is due to its current lack of customization. One benefit of JAWS is that it offers a large amount of options to configure how things are spoken or displayed in Braille, with the script language being just one of those features. I think that if we see Narrator being given the ability to accept custom scripts it may be taken more seriously by corporate users. I do agree that it's gaining ground and is becoming an impressive screen reader.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist
[JAWS Certified, 2022]<https://www.freedomscientific.com/Training/Certification>
NVDA Certified Expert<https://certification.nvaccess.org/>

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive news, events and information regarding the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io<mailto:tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io>
www.DavidGoldfield.org<http://www.DavidGoldfield.org>

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Saturday, August 13, 2022 10:48 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days

That may be. So far, Narrator is much more limited, though it can do a lot more than it used to.

Gene
On 8/13/2022 8:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sat, Aug 13, 2022 at 09:09 PM, Gene wrote:
That is the reason I strongly disagree with those who want Microsoft to develop Narrator into a screen-reader capable of competing with JAWS and NVDA. If it ever becomes good enough to destroy those screen-readers, there will be no more choice and a monopoly will exist.
-
Well, I'd say your wish is not going to be met, as Narrator is nipping at the heels of the other screen readers that run on Windows, though its market share right now is small. There is no doubt that Microsoft intends Narrator to be very serious competition for all the existing screen readers. But that is by no means any guarantee that it will take over the market, but it will definitely be making further inroads.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

I'm with you on learning curves, still trying to get my head acclimatised to Windows 10 from 7, which I am still using a lot more.
Brian

So why is it that I have friends who took to Edge browser like  a duck to water, but I struggle with the interface, preferring Firefox most of the time. However Edge works better in Google Meet as the toggles for Mic. and camera get announced in Edge but not in Firefox, it is also faster, but seldom is that an issue when most machines since around 2014 have been well fast enough given the ram and decent drive.
Brian

On Sun, Aug 14, 2022 at 02:27 AM, Gene wrote:

I agree, but my interest is in getting people to realize that for a second screen-reader, which people may want to use if their first doesn't do something, they can do a lot knowing little about it so they will consider having a second one available.

Also, nowing what I'm saying may encourage people to try another screen-reader  and perhaps switch if they find it meets their needs, which they might not even have tried before, such as trying NVDA.

-
I'm agreeing with you 100%, but if this is not common knowledge by now, it never will be.

Since my very earliest days in the blind and low-vision technology sphere, I was told that you have to have at least two web browsers at the ready to use, and two screen readers at the ready to use (if you could afford such, and these days with NVDA and Narrator, anyone can afford such). And I started into this arena over a decade ago.  In this specific regard, not a blessed thing has changed since then.  The general principle applies, but for differing reasons over time.

It's a fact that certain web sites work better with specific browsers, there are not all that many of those, but they exist.  It's also clear that specific screen readers can and do work better with a specific combination of website and web browser at times, and with certain application programs.

If you want to be able to get around the problems in any one of those situations, you have to be ready to jump to a secondary choice to see how it works in context.  And if the issue or issues continue, you're getting good information for trouble reporting, too.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.

   ~ Martin Luther King, Jr.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, August 14, 2022 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: [chat] k1000 saved my pdf bacon twice in 2 days


On Sun, Aug 14, 2022 at 01:38 AM, David Goldfield wrote:

It does occur to me that Microsoft continues to add more magnification
features in Windows for its low vision users. Yet I see no signs of
Zoomtext or, for that matter, SuperNova slowing down.

-
David,

I don't know what, precisely, you believe this proves. Just as JAWS had many years of momentum and familiarity behind it, ensuring market dominance for a very long time (and I believe it still remains number one, though NVDA is now giving it a real run for its money), so does ZoomText.

Having been first to market, and having an existing and loyal user base, will ensure your place at the table for a very long time even after competitors that are just as good, sometimes better, have come on the scene. And certain competitors that are just as good or better (arguably, but see Window Eyes as but one example) end up being bought out by another competitor and promptly dispatched with.

The marketplace is complicated, to say the least, and those not first to market, and particularly when the "first to market" came to dominate it, have a long, slow road to acceptance, if they ever get there.

But money and a certain kind of familiarity talk, too. And I suspect Microsoft will be getting a bit of a leg up simply because their accessibility solutions come with Windows and they've clearly indicated that they aren't messing around about these things anymore.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

*Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.*

~ Martin Luther King, Jr.