Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys


David Russell <david.sonofhashem@...>
 

Hello NVDA Chat,
For your convenience, I am pasting the following link or URL below. My
questions follow.

Use Mouse Keys to move the mouse pointer - Microsoft Support
https://support.microsoft.com › en-us › windows › use-...
About this Result
To turn on Mouse Keys · Open Ease of Access Center by clicking the
Start button Start button icon , clicking Control Panel, clicking Ease
of Access, and then ...

Since instructions are stated in 'click' form, does this make this
tool more tailored to the sighted user, or is click synonymous with
enter?

It seems that hot key commands, also called shortcut keys, are giving
way to a website using icons and mouse clicks in order for one to
access its features. Doesn't this tend to pose red flags to the whole
notion of accessibility?
Can a website be put under some kind of obligation to reinstall former
features that worked for the general population let alone blind or
other disabled folk?

Thanks in advance for your comments or input.

--
David C. Russell, Author
david.sonofhashem@...


 

Are you referring to this page?  https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/use-mouse-keys-to-move-the-mouse-pointer-9e0c72c8-b882-7918-8e7b-391fd62adf33 

Your link is only to the main MS Support Page.  The previously noted page states that it applies to Windows 7, which is out of support.  The equivalent does exist in Windows 10 (and I'd presume, 11) under Settings, Ease of Access, Interaction Group, Mouse Item.

Mouse Keys simply allows those lacking fine motor control to be able to move the mouse around and perform clicks by alternative means.  It's certainly something that would have no use for a screen reader user, as the equivalent is built in to any screen reader I've ever dealt with.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Gene
 

The link isn't correct.  Your link has spaces in it and an ellipse, indicating that it is not a full link.  Do not copy links from the address given below the link on a results page. 

When you copy a link to a page, be on the page.  Use control l or alt d to move to the address bar.  Copy the link to the clipboard. Move back to the message using f6 or shift f6 until you get to the text again, if you want to move back to the text.  Whether you go back to the text or not, paste the link obtained in that way into the e-mail message. 

There are sighted instructions for mouse use all over.  It means nothing about the accessibility of what is being used.  I am not aware of a move away from accessibility of web sites.  They already have a lot of icons.  Any time you press space on a button, you are doing the equivalent of left clicking and you are clicking an icon.  When you press enter on a link, you are doing the equivalent of left clicking it with a mouse. 

Gene

On 6/6/2022 10:09 AM, David Russell wrote:

Hello NVDA Chat,
For your convenience, I am pasting the following link or URL below. My
questions follow.

Use Mouse Keys to move the mouse pointer - Microsoft Support
https://support.microsoft.com › en-us › windows › use-...
About this Result
To turn on Mouse Keys · Open Ease of Access Center by clicking the
Start button Start button icon , clicking Control Panel, clicking Ease
of Access, and then ...

Since instructions are stated in 'click' form, does this make this
tool more tailored to the sighted user, or is click synonymous with
enter?

It seems that hot key commands, also called shortcut keys, are giving
way to a website using icons and mouse clicks in order for one to
access its features. Doesn't this tend to pose red flags to the whole
notion of accessibility?
Can a website be put under some kind of obligation to reinstall former
features that worked for the general population let alone blind or
other disabled folk?

Thanks in advance for your comments or input.



Brian's Mail list account
 

There are a lot of redesigns going on at the moment, and really in my view, developers are just looking for something new to do to keep their jobs, grin. Change for its own sake is counter productive to all users according to what I hear. If it aint broke don't fix it seems not to be inthe vocabulary these days. How many of the apps work and then don't, its getting the same way on the web. No wonder we hang on to legacy stuff. I'm not going to start an argument about ribbons vs menus versus other ways to control things but really if we had all stuck with classic menus and classic toolbars and property sheets, everyone would be clear what they all do by now.
Brian

--
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Russell" <david.sonofhashem@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2022 4:09 PM
Subject: [chat] Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys


Hello NVDA Chat,
For your convenience, I am pasting the following link or URL below. My
questions follow.

Use Mouse Keys to move the mouse pointer - Microsoft Support
https://support.microsoft.com › en-us › windows › use-...
About this Result
To turn on Mouse Keys · Open Ease of Access Center by clicking the
Start button Start button icon , clicking Control Panel, clicking Ease
of Access, and then ...

Since instructions are stated in 'click' form, does this make this
tool more tailored to the sighted user, or is click synonymous with
enter?

It seems that hot key commands, also called shortcut keys, are giving
way to a website using icons and mouse clicks in order for one to
access its features. Doesn't this tend to pose red flags to the whole
notion of accessibility?
Can a website be put under some kind of obligation to reinstall former
features that worked for the general population let alone blind or
other disabled folk?

Thanks in advance for your comments or input.

--
David C. Russell, Author
david.sonofhashem@...


 

On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 12:42 PM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
if we had all stuck with classic menus and classic toolbars and property sheets, everyone would be clear what they all do by now.
-
But "we" didn't, and those among "we" who took the little time it takes to learn how "what's happenin' now" works have been clear about what they all need to do for years and years now.  I have grown bone tired about complaints about change in computer UIs.  It is a fact of life that is never, ever, going to go away.  The time spent complaining about it is far more effectively used by learning how it works.  The ribbon interface has been standard for over a decade now.  It's long past time to have not only become kinda familiar with it, but actually have mastered it.
  
Nothing is so constant in life as change, and nowhere is change more rapid than in the world of computing.  'Twas ever thus.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Sarah k Alawami
 

If you learn the sighted language and do things a cited way, you will be okay. We’ve been actually preaching about this for years, if you fail to learn the language, or cannot, and fail to learn how to do things decided way, or interpret but those instructions to work for you with your screen reader, you will get left behind, always.

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
Sent: Monday, June 6, 2022 10:58:08 AM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [chat] Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys
 
On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 12:42 PM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:
if we had all stuck with classic menus and classic toolbars and property sheets, everyone would be clear what they all do by now.
-
But "we" didn't, and those among "we" who took the little time it takes to learn how "what's happenin' now" works have been clear about what they all need to do for years and years now.  I have grown bone tired about complaints about change in computer UIs.  It is a fact of life that is never, ever, going to go away.  The time spent complaining about it is far more effectively used by learning how it works.  The ribbon interface has been standard for over a decade now.  It's long past time to have not only become kinda familiar with it, but actually have mastered it.
  
Nothing is so constant in life as change, and nowhere is change more rapid than in the world of computing.  'Twas ever thus.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


 

On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 02:06 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
If you learn the sighted language and do things a cited way, you will be okay.
-
On this, we're in absolute agreement.  Documentation, except that written exclusively for screen reader users, is always going to be phrased as "point and click."  If you cannot translate point to "gain focus on [and select, when applicable]" and "activate" you have absolutely no one to blame but yourself for that shortcoming.

The overwhelming majority of technical documentation, for everything, is going to be written for individuals who are sighted, who constitute probably at least 98%, if not 99% or above, of the total user base.  You cut yourself off from almost everything if you are unwilling to do the simple "point and click to keyboard actions" translations needed to use that documentation.

When I was a cognitive rehabilitation therapist I used to tell all of my clients that, whether fair or not, one of their major jobs in life going forward was to configure themselves to "how the world is" to the maximum extent possible, because it's never going to configure itself to you.  And that's true for all of us, regardless of visual status, disability status, etc.  You've got to find a way that works for you to exploit available resources as they exist.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


JM Casey
 

Besides all this, there is a definite lack of good documentation with screen-readers in mind, anywhere, when it coems to anything but the most “expected” sorts of software combinations. Yeah, there are a lot of tutorials for Micrsoft Office and whatnot, which sometimes painstakingly explain how to accomplish tasks with screen-readers in mind, but if I want to look up something about Office, even, I’m not going to go to one of those – I’m going to do a google search to find out how to accomplish something, and for sure, whoever wrote that thing is going to unambiguously have a sighted audience in mind. That’s usually fine. What Iv’e noticed, too, is that my brain doesn’t have to do a lot of “translating” at all, anyway. Many instructions will actually give keyboard-oriented tips anyway, or suggest an alternative way that immediately makes me think of how I’ll accomplish this witht eh keyboard.

On the operating system level, especially, I’ve noticed many directions/docs will give keyboard-oriented directions, because I suppose, it is quicker and more definitive to just tell someone to type something in, rather than instruct them to poke around in menus and click on this, that and the other thing, though of course you see a whole lot of that, too.

On a fun little side note, it’s probably just me, but whenever a set of Windows-oriented directions say to “open up a command prompt”, I’m almost irrationally pleased/content.

 

 

 

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: June 6, 2022 02:23 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys

 

On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 02:06 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

If you learn the sighted language and do things a cited way, you will be okay.

-
On this, we're in absolute agreement.  Documentation, except that written exclusively for screen reader users, is always going to be phrased as "point and click."  If you cannot translate point to "gain focus on [and select, when applicable]" and "activate" you have absolutely no one to blame but yourself for that shortcoming.

The overwhelming majority of technical documentation, for everything, is going to be written for individuals who are sighted, who constitute probably at least 98%, if not 99% or above, of the total user base.  You cut yourself off from almost everything if you are unwilling to do the simple "point and click to keyboard actions" translations needed to use that documentation.

When I was a cognitive rehabilitation therapist I used to tell all of my clients that, whether fair or not, one of their major jobs in life going forward was to configure themselves to "how the world is" to the maximum extent possible, because it's never going to configure itself to you.  And that's true for all of us, regardless of visual status, disability status, etc.  You've got to find a way that works for you to exploit available resources as they exist.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


Sarah k Alawami
 

I’m taking a class right now where instructions are not given with the screen reader in mind. I’m fine with that. I’ve learned to translate, and if someone can’t do that, then I’m afraid they will be left behind. If you cannot learn the cited way, then I’m not really sure what to tell you at this point.

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of JM Casey <jmcasey@...>
Sent: Monday, June 6, 2022 1:27:04 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [chat] Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys
 

Besides all this, there is a definite lack of good documentation with screen-readers in mind, anywhere, when it coems to anything but the most “expected” sorts of software combinations. Yeah, there are a lot of tutorials for Micrsoft Office and whatnot, which sometimes painstakingly explain how to accomplish tasks with screen-readers in mind, but if I want to look up something about Office, even, I’m not going to go to one of those – I’m going to do a google search to find out how to accomplish something, and for sure, whoever wrote that thing is going to unambiguously have a sighted audience in mind. That’s usually fine. What Iv’e noticed, too, is that my brain doesn’t have to do a lot of “translating” at all, anyway. Many instructions will actually give keyboard-oriented tips anyway, or suggest an alternative way that immediately makes me think of how I’ll accomplish this witht eh keyboard.

On the operating system level, especially, I’ve noticed many directions/docs will give keyboard-oriented directions, because I suppose, it is quicker and more definitive to just tell someone to type something in, rather than instruct them to poke around in menus and click on this, that and the other thing, though of course you see a whole lot of that, too.

On a fun little side note, it’s probably just me, but whenever a set of Windows-oriented directions say to “open up a command prompt”, I’m almost irrationally pleased/content.

 

 

 

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: June 6, 2022 02:23 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys

 

On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 02:06 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

If you learn the sighted language and do things a cited way, you will be okay.

-
On this, we're in absolute agreement.  Documentation, except that written exclusively for screen reader users, is always going to be phrased as "point and click."  If you cannot translate point to "gain focus on [and select, when applicable]" and "activate" you have absolutely no one to blame but yourself for that shortcoming.

The overwhelming majority of technical documentation, for everything, is going to be written for individuals who are sighted, who constitute probably at least 98%, if not 99% or above, of the total user base.  You cut yourself off from almost everything if you are unwilling to do the simple "point and click to keyboard actions" translations needed to use that documentation.

When I was a cognitive rehabilitation therapist I used to tell all of my clients that, whether fair or not, one of their major jobs in life going forward was to configure themselves to "how the world is" to the maximum extent possible, because it's never going to configure itself to you.  And that's true for all of us, regardless of visual status, disability status, etc.  You've got to find a way that works for you to exploit available resources as they exist.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


 

On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 04:44 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
If you cannot learn the sighted way,
-
I don't even think that this statement is complete, per se.   Those of us who've learned things like automobile mechanics, computing, or any other specialized area have had to learn the jargon, and what it means, as part and parcel of that learning.

The fact is that most of the world is sighted.  But that has only a limited connection to lots of jargon, though some is definitely skewed toward vision as the sensory modality.

I've used tutorials that I wrote exclusively with screen reader users in mind with sighted audiences, and without doing "reverse translation."  I simply mention that  "gain focus on" coupled with "activate" almost always means point and double click, if that.  I expect that readers really shouldn't have much trouble doing the reverse translation from keyboard shortcuts to point and click.  How difficult is it, when I've written something like, "Hit ALT + F, Y [File Backstage View, Options]," for a sighted person to know that means, "Open the file backstage view, Options item?"  The only thing they may be unfamiliar with is the keyboard shortcuts.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

    ~Bertrand Russell


Sarah k Alawami
 

That’s true. When I write my manuals, I don’t put any blind language in there. I expect the blind person to know what we’re talking about. If I say double click on something, the blind person should know to hit enter or whatever they do if they are using other tools. So again, they will be left behind. 

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
Sent: Monday, June 6, 2022 2:18:25 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [chat] Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys
 
On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 04:44 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
If you cannot learn the sighted way,
-
I don't even think that this statement is complete, per se.   Those of us who've learned things like automobile mechanics, computing, or any other specialized area have had to learn the jargon, and what it means, as part and parcel of that learning.

The fact is that most of the world is sighted.  But that has only a limited connection to lots of jargon, though some is definitely skewed toward vision as the sensory modality.

I've used tutorials that I wrote exclusively with screen reader users in mind with sighted audiences, and without doing "reverse translation."  I simply mention that  "gain focus on" coupled with "activate" almost always means point and double click, if that.  I expect that readers really shouldn't have much trouble doing the reverse translation from keyboard shortcuts to point and click.  How difficult is it, when I've written something like, "Hit ALT + F, Y [File Backstage View, Options]," for a sighted person to know that means, "Open the file backstage view, Options item?"  The only thing they may be unfamiliar with is the keyboard shortcuts.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

    ~Bertrand Russell


JM Casey
 

Let’s be fair though. Not everyone wants, or needs to know what you know, or I know. It is beneficial though,  if one wishes to take the time and put in a little effort.

 

 

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: June 6, 2022 04:45 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys

 

I’m taking a class right now where instructions are not given with the screen reader in mind. I’m fine with that. I’ve learned to translate, and if someone can’t do that, then I’m afraid they will be left behind. If you cannot learn the cited way, then I’m not really sure what to tell you at this point.


From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of JM Casey <jmcasey@...>
Sent: Monday, June 6, 2022 1:27:04 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [chat] Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys

 

Besides all this, there is a definite lack of good documentation with screen-readers in mind, anywhere, when it coems to anything but the most “expected” sorts of software combinations. Yeah, there are a lot of tutorials for Micrsoft Office and whatnot, which sometimes painstakingly explain how to accomplish tasks with screen-readers in mind, but if I want to look up something about Office, even, I’m not going to go to one of those – I’m going to do a google search to find out how to accomplish something, and for sure, whoever wrote that thing is going to unambiguously have a sighted audience in mind. That’s usually fine. What Iv’e noticed, too, is that my brain doesn’t have to do a lot of “translating” at all, anyway. Many instructions will actually give keyboard-oriented tips anyway, or suggest an alternative way that immediately makes me think of how I’ll accomplish this witht eh keyboard.

On the operating system level, especially, I’ve noticed many directions/docs will give keyboard-oriented directions, because I suppose, it is quicker and more definitive to just tell someone to type something in, rather than instruct them to poke around in menus and click on this, that and the other thing, though of course you see a whole lot of that, too.

On a fun little side note, it’s probably just me, but whenever a set of Windows-oriented directions say to “open up a command prompt”, I’m almost irrationally pleased/content.

 

 

 

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: June 6, 2022 02:23 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys

 

On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 02:06 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

If you learn the sighted language and do things a cited way, you will be okay.

-
On this, we're in absolute agreement.  Documentation, except that written exclusively for screen reader users, is always going to be phrased as "point and click."  If you cannot translate point to "gain focus on [and select, when applicable]" and "activate" you have absolutely no one to blame but yourself for that shortcoming.

The overwhelming majority of technical documentation, for everything, is going to be written for individuals who are sighted, who constitute probably at least 98%, if not 99% or above, of the total user base.  You cut yourself off from almost everything if you are unwilling to do the simple "point and click to keyboard actions" translations needed to use that documentation.

When I was a cognitive rehabilitation therapist I used to tell all of my clients that, whether fair or not, one of their major jobs in life going forward was to configure themselves to "how the world is" to the maximum extent possible, because it's never going to configure itself to you.  And that's true for all of us, regardless of visual status, disability status, etc.  You've got to find a way that works for you to exploit available resources as they exist.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

        ~ Mark Twain


JM Casey
 

Yeah…I mean that specific example is very basic and is definitely something everyone should know regardless of their experience level.

I do think it’s important to know your audience. If I was writing for blind people  exclusively, I’d be more inclined to use their language, but most of the time, you won’t be, and so using language that most everyone can understand is good.

Microsoft put out some pretty good literature about Windows, and none of it even mentions screen-readers – but I certainly learned a lot from it about how the OS works and looks and functions, so I would consider that a great benefit. Again, a lot of that stuff does talk about keyboard commands and so on. It’s generally accepted in the iT world, from what I’ve seen, that some people use the keyboard a lot more than others and are very fast with it.

 

 

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: June 6, 2022 05:23 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys

 

That’s true. When I write my manuals, I don’t put any blind language in there. I expect the blind person to know what we’re talking about. If I say double click on something, the blind person should know to hit enter or whatever they do if they are using other tools. So again, they will be left behind. 


From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of Brian Vogel <britechguy@...>
Sent: Monday, June 6, 2022 2:18:25 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [chat] Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys

 

On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 04:44 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

If you cannot learn the sighted way,

-
I don't even think that this statement is complete, per se.   Those of us who've learned things like automobile mechanics, computing, or any other specialized area have had to learn the jargon, and what it means, as part and parcel of that learning.

The fact is that most of the world is sighted.  But that has only a limited connection to lots of jargon, though some is definitely skewed toward vision as the sensory modality.

I've used tutorials that I wrote exclusively with screen reader users in mind with sighted audiences, and without doing "reverse translation."  I simply mention that  "gain focus on" coupled with "activate" almost always means point and double click, if that.  I expect that readers really shouldn't have much trouble doing the reverse translation from keyboard shortcuts to point and click.  How difficult is it, when I've written something like, "Hit ALT + F, Y [File Backstage View, Options]," for a sighted person to know that means, "Open the file backstage view, Options item?"  The only thing they may be unfamiliar with is the keyboard shortcuts.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

    ~Bertrand Russell


 

On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 05:32 PM, JM Casey wrote:
Not everyone wants, or needs to know what you know, or I know.
-
Which is utterly beside the point, because no one is claiming that the totality of personal knowledge should be the same, or even vaguely similar.

What is being said is that the basic "sighted jargon" in instructions that use point and click terminology should be very easily understandable by any blind computer user.  Really, if you cannot be bothered to learn the few basic mouse point and click to keyboard translations, and they are relatively few, then you're cutting yourself off from the vast majority of the tutorials and other information out there.

With regard to the sighted that use keyboard shortcuts, they definitely exist but most are either old (literally) and old-school users who have been working since the DOS days and/or those who are involved with very data entry intensive jobs where removing one's hands from the keyboard slows things down significantly.  I can definitely say, though, that when it comes to the sighted most have no idea of the vast majority of keyboard shortcuts.  The holy trinity of cut (CTRL + X), Copy (CTRL + C), and Paste (CTRL + V) being noteable exceptions, and even that knowledge is far from universal.  What amazes me is that those using point and click very often have never paid the slightest bit of attention to the keyboard shortcuts that are shown in the context menus themselves each and every time they use point and click.

But, and it applies to me, too, almost all of us either learn one way of doing something and stick with it because there's no pressing need to change or know of multiple ways to do something but always discuss our preferred method.  It's interesting when you get someone who was clearly taught by someone who had no idea of what "the most efficient way" was to do a given thing and has, often for many years, been using a convoluted way to do something that can be greatly simplified using another way.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

    ~Bertrand Russell


JM Casey
 

Yeah, I’m sure that’s true of most users, but when I mentioend the keyboard usage at the end of that last message, I was thinking specifically of those who work for service desks and such. Many times when someone came to one of my work computers to install or adjust or fix something, I noticed that they were using keyboard commands extensively. Of course ideally most computer users would make efficient use of both mouse and keyboard to perform tasks as needed.

 

 

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: June 6, 2022 05:48 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys

 

On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 05:32 PM, JM Casey wrote:

Not everyone wants, or needs to know what you know, or I know.

-
Which is utterly beside the point, because no one is claiming that the totality of personal knowledge should be the same, or even vaguely similar.

What is being said is that the basic "sighted jargon" in instructions that use point and click terminology should be very easily understandable by any blind computer user.  Really, if you cannot be bothered to learn the few basic mouse point and click to keyboard translations, and they are relatively few, then you're cutting yourself off from the vast majority of the tutorials and other information out there.

With regard to the sighted that use keyboard shortcuts, they definitely exist but most are either old (literally) and old-school users who have been working since the DOS days and/or those who are involved with very data entry intensive jobs where removing one's hands from the keyboard slows things down significantly.  I can definitely say, though, that when it comes to the sighted most have no idea of the vast majority of keyboard shortcuts.  The holy trinity of cut (CTRL + X), Copy (CTRL + C), and Paste (CTRL + V) being noteable exceptions, and even that knowledge is far from universal.  What amazes me is that those using point and click very often have never paid the slightest bit of attention to the keyboard shortcuts that are shown in the context menus themselves each and every time they use point and click.

But, and it applies to me, too, almost all of us either learn one way of doing something and stick with it because there's no pressing need to change or know of multiple ways to do something but always discuss our preferred method.  It's interesting when you get someone who was clearly taught by someone who had no idea of what "the most efficient way" was to do a given thing and has, often for many years, been using a convoluted way to do something that can be greatly simplified using another way.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

    ~Bertrand Russell


David Russell <david.sonofhashem@...>
 

Hello Chat Members,
Thank you Sarah, Brian, Gene and JM for weighing in on my topic.
First, success! I was able to go to User Settings at the website in
question and make the desired changes with checkmarks.

Yes, I agree we need to adapt to the world as it is. However, I did
grow up in a time when blind persons made their angst publicly known
through a major U.S. group for the blind. Tactics have changed or
mellowed over 50 years.

Thank you for informing me/us that Mouse Keys is a program not
necessarily for the sightless. I did not know.

Also, thanks for pointing out that pasting links from search results
does not accomplish the desired end.

I belong to this group to better my tech savvy and admit it has some
ways to sojourn.

Best,

--
David C. Russell, Author
david.sonofhashem@...


Brian's Mail list account
 

While that is in the main true. I do often find sighted people who still struggle with interfaces changing all the time, and there simply has to be some way to the middle ground. I do feel that if software/web site writers bear accessibility in mind at the start, a cleaner less muddled outcome make the navigation easier, whether you are pointing and clicking or using the keyboard. Its still all too often that you hear the red button on the top left when its maybe looking like a button but is in fact a link and is in a completely illogical place when trying to navigate via the keyboard.

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2022 7:22 PM
Subject: Re: [chat] Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys


On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 02:06 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:


If you learn the sighted language and do things a cited way, you will be
okay.
-
On this, we're in absolute agreement. Documentation, except that written exclusively for screen reader users, is always going to be phrased as "point and click." If you cannot translate point to "gain focus on [and select, when applicable]" and "activate" you have absolutely no one to blame but yourself for that shortcoming.

The overwhelming majority of technical documentation, for everything, is going to be written for individuals who are sighted, who constitute probably at least 98%, if not 99% or above, of the total user base. You cut yourself off from almost everything if you are unwilling to do the simple "point and click to keyboard actions" translations needed to use that documentation.

When I was a cognitive rehabilitation therapist I used to tell all of my clients that, whether fair or not, one of their major jobs in life going forward was to configure themselves to "how the world is" to the maximum extent possible, because it's never going to configure itself to you. And that's true for all of us, regardless of visual status, disability status, etc. You've got to find a way that works for you to exploit available resources as they exist.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

*Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.*

~ Mark Twain


Brian's Mail list account
 

I do not agree that we should expect everyone to be like us. People learn in different ways, some can make the jump and others are by wrote, you see this too in the sighted world. I was astounded only last week when I routinely renamed a file from the keyboard thought the context menu, to let the person see what the option was or created a new folder from the keyboard and they said, I did not even tknow you could do that. These are the by wrote people of sight, and so its not just us. I really am struggling right now to tech some sighted people to use software that I used based on batch files, I did it this way as its simple and no frills or pretty pictures of course, I don't need those!
I think in the end though one has to retain a sense of humour or both parties would be around the bend....
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Sarah k Alawami" <marrie12@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2022 9:44 PM
Subject: Re: [chat] Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys


I’m taking a class right now where instructions are not given with the screen reader in mind. I’m fine with that. I’ve learned to translate, and if someone can’t do that, then I’m afraid they will be left behind. If you cannot learn the cited way, then I’m not really sure what to tell you at this point.

Get Outlook for iOS<https://aka.ms/o0ukef>
________________________________
From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> on behalf of JM Casey <jmcasey@...>
Sent: Monday, June 6, 2022 1:27:04 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [chat] Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys


Besides all this, there is a definite lack of good documentation with screen-readers in mind, anywhere, when it coems to anything but the most “expected” sorts of software combinations. Yeah, there are a lot of tutorials for Micrsoft Office and whatnot, which sometimes painstakingly explain how to accomplish tasks with screen-readers in mind, but if I want to look up something about Office, even, I’m not going to go to one of those – I’m going to do a google search to find out how to accomplish something, and for sure, whoever wrote that thing is going to unambiguously have a sighted audience in mind. That’s usually fine. What Iv’e noticed, too, is that my brain doesn’t have to do a lot of “translating” at all, anyway. Many instructions will actually give keyboard-oriented tips anyway, or suggest an alternative way that immediately makes me think of how I’ll accomplish this witht eh keyboard.

On the operating system level, especially, I’ve noticed many directions/docs will give keyboard-oriented directions, because I suppose, it is quicker and more definitive to just tell someone to type something in, rather than instruct them to poke around in menus and click on this, that and the other thing, though of course you see a whole lot of that, too.

On a fun little side note, it’s probably just me, but whenever a set of Windows-oriented directions say to “open up a command prompt”, I’m almost irrationally pleased/content.







From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: June 6, 2022 02:23 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys



On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 02:06 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

If you learn the sighted language and do things a cited way, you will be okay.

-
On this, we're in absolute agreement. Documentation, except that written exclusively for screen reader users, is always going to be phrased as "point and click." If you cannot translate point to "gain focus on [and select, when applicable]" and "activate" you have absolutely no one to blame but yourself for that shortcoming.

The overwhelming majority of technical documentation, for everything, is going to be written for individuals who are sighted, who constitute probably at least 98%, if not 99% or above, of the total user base. You cut yourself off from almost everything if you are unwilling to do the simple "point and click to keyboard actions" translations needed to use that documentation.

When I was a cognitive rehabilitation therapist I used to tell all of my clients that, whether fair or not, one of their major jobs in life going forward was to configure themselves to "how the world is" to the maximum extent possible, because it's never going to configure itself to you. And that's true for all of us, regardless of visual status, disability status, etc. You've got to find a way that works for you to exploit available resources as they exist.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

Under certain circumstances, profanity provides a relief denied even to prayer.

~ Mark Twain


Brian's Mail list account
 

I agree, it is a lot faster. I used to have sight and was always frustrated by the way some mice moved the pointer just as you clicked. I eventually went over to a small track ball in the windows 98 days.

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "JM Casey" <jmcasey@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2022 10:37 PM
Subject: Re: [chat] Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys


Yeah.I mean that specific example is very basic and is definitely something
everyone should know regardless of their experience level.

I do think it's important to know your audience. If I was writing for blind
people exclusively, I'd be more inclined to use their language, but most of
the time, you won't be, and so using language that most everyone can
understand is good.

Microsoft put out some pretty good literature about Windows, and none of it
even mentions screen-readers - but I certainly learned a lot from it about
how the OS works and looks and functions, so I would consider that a great
benefit. Again, a lot of that stuff does talk about keyboard commands and so
on. It's generally accepted in the iT world, from what I've seen, that some
people use the keyboard a lot more than others and are very fast with it.





From: chat@nvda.groups.io <chat@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sarah k Alawami
Sent: June 6, 2022 05:23 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [chat] Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys



That's true. When I write my manuals, I don't put any blind language in
there. I expect the blind person to know what we're talking about. If I say
double click on something, the blind person should know to hit enter or
whatever they do if they are using other tools. So again, they will be left
behind.



Get Outlook for iOS <https://aka.ms/o0ukef>

_____

From: chat@nvda.groups.io <mailto:chat@nvda.groups.io> <chat@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:chat@nvda.groups.io> > on behalf of Brian Vogel
<britechguy@... <mailto:britechguy@...> >
Sent: Monday, June 6, 2022 2:18:25 PM
To: chat@nvda.groups.io <mailto:chat@nvda.groups.io> <chat@nvda.groups.io
<mailto:chat@nvda.groups.io> >
Subject: Re: [chat] Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys



On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 04:44 PM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:

If you cannot learn the sighted way,

-
I don't even think that this statement is complete, per se. Those of us
who've learned things like automobile mechanics, computing, or any other
specialized area have had to learn the jargon, and what it means, as part
and parcel of that learning.

The fact is that most of the world is sighted. But that has only a limited
connection to lots of jargon, though some is definitely skewed toward vision
as the sensory modality.

I've used tutorials that I wrote exclusively with screen reader users in
mind with sighted audiences, and without doing "reverse translation." I
simply mention that "gain focus on" coupled with "activate" almost always
means point and double click, if that. I expect that readers really
shouldn't have much trouble doing the reverse translation from keyboard
shortcuts to point and click. How difficult is it, when I've written
something like, "Hit ALT + F, Y [File Backstage View, Options]," for a
sighted person to know that means, "Open the file backstage view, Options
item?" The only thing they may be unfamiliar with is the keyboard
shortcuts.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044



The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which
assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot
co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is
untrue. . .

~Bertrand Russell


Brian's Mail list account
 

One does have the odd problem though when using the keyboard to say,whizz down, stop at a file and highlight it and copy it elsewhere, finding when you get there, that the wrong file copied as the machine had not caught up with you.

Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <britechguy@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, June 06, 2022 10:48 PM
Subject: Re: [chat] Microsoft Product, Mouse Keys


On Mon, Jun 6, 2022 at 05:32 PM, JM Casey wrote:


Not everyone wants, or needs to know what you know, or I know.
-
Which is utterly beside the point, because no one is claiming that the totality of personal knowledge should be the same, or even vaguely similar.

What is being said is that the basic "sighted jargon" in instructions that use point and click terminology should be very easily understandable by any blind computer user. Really, if you cannot be bothered to learn the few basic mouse point and click to keyboard translations, and they are relatively few, then you're cutting yourself off from the vast majority of the tutorials and other information out there.

With regard to the sighted that use keyboard shortcuts, they definitely exist but most are either old (literally) and old-school users who have been working since the DOS days and/or those who are involved with very data entry intensive jobs where removing one's hands from the keyboard slows things down significantly. I can definitely say, though, that when it comes to the sighted most have no idea of the vast majority of keyboard shortcuts. The holy trinity of cut (CTRL + X), Copy (CTRL + C), and Paste (CTRL + V) being noteable exceptions, and even that knowledge is far from universal. What amazes me is that those using point and click very often have never paid the slightest bit of attention to the keyboard shortcuts that are shown in the context menus themselves each and every time they use point and click.

But, and it applies to me, too, almost all of us either learn one way of doing something and stick with it because there's no pressing need to change or know of multiple ways to do something but always discuss our preferred method. It's interesting when you get someone who was clearly taught by someone who had no idea of what "the most efficient way" was to do a given thing and has, often for many years, been using a convoluted way to do something that can be greatly simplified using another way.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

*The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another. Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .*

~Bertrand Russell