I was just thinking really, about all this new broom Brian is thinking about. My one worry about it is that you have to weigh up two things, something I remember talking about back in the 80s when I moderated a list on Prestel for BT
Too draconian and you get people thinking your product is not worth supporting as the list is too strict. Too lenient and it gets used as a chatline and constantly goes over the my synth is better than yours etc, old stuff. In my case back in the day it was commodore 64 vs Spectrum, but you get my drift.
In the end we had to split them up.

It is very difficult in this case though as we certainly do not want those who use nvda with one toe in the water to feel lectured at to master web sites when they do not want or need to.
I am not prying but Brian, would you be a sighted teacher of the blind?
I have come across quite a few and had major arguments with most of them over not appreciating some peoples limitations.
Not suggesting that you don't, but sometimes it feels like you are a little dismissive of problems like email out of sequence arrivals for instance. It happens, it cannot be changed very easily. some have to put upwith it.
OK I know we are often told to move outside our comfort zone but that zone is different for different people.
Don't take this personally, I know I often sail pretty close to the wind, but although a closed mouth gathers no feet, often you have to risk the odd bit of toenail between your teeth to be honest with others.
Grin.

Brian

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Brian,

           No offense taken.  I would have thought, by now, that all of the "old timers" on the lists I frequent (and NVDA being one of those) would be thoroughly familiar with me and my background.   I think everyone should know I'm sighted just because I've stated it, directly, and also indirectly with my comment about my not using a screen reader routinely.   I have been tutoring individuals who are either going blind, are already blind, or who are legally blind for about 10 years now.  Generally the topic is JAWS, but there have been some clients who used ZoomText and I had one gentleman who used both because he was in the "variable vision" transition period when losing his sight.

           You will have to form your own opinion about whether or not I understand that people have different limitations, but I definitely think I do.   One thing I have experienced, and will not do myself, is low expectations among many instructors for "that poor, blind person."   Low expectations get low results.   I have been teaching individuals how to use virtually any program you can name, primarily on Windows platforms but a little dabbling in Mac and iPhone and Android, for years now.   I have yet to have one who could not and did not achieve at least basic proficiency, and very often more than that, with the basics of digital citizenship:  e-mailing and web browsing and searching.   A great many also needed to become at least basically proficient with one or more office suite tools, most often MS-Word.   I expect of all my students, blind or otherwise, the same end result.   How that end result is obtained is directly dependent on methods used, but the end result should not be.  When one has to step back and take a different tack on something, one does, but unless it becomes abundantly clear that basic proficiency with a target program cannot be achieved, it's expected it will become achieved.   The key is assisting in that endeavor, and being very creative about how you go about it.   The number of tricks I have up my sleeve is ever increasing, and those increases are generally the result of having to come up with "the next way" for a given student when all the previously successful ways just don't work for him or her.

              None of the expectations set out in the Reboot document are unreasonable, in any way.   Most are guidelines, meaning they can't be enforced but are something that any member should be considering, and some of that includes considering what one is about to do before one actually does it.   Some will choose to adopt more of the guidelines than others.   About the only rule is going to be whether something is truly NVDA centric or not.   Most of the traffic on the main group ceased to be NVDA centric in any way a long time ago, and the group owner and I would like to reverse that, as would many of the "old timers" heard from.   The push toward using the chat group for anything non-NVDA-centric gives the membership a convenient avenue to ask questions, technical or otherwise, or have conversations on virtually anything unrelated to NVDA or peripherally related, at very best.   

               Essentially, the main group will be more tightly moderated with regard to topic focus, while the chat group will be far more open.  Since everyone in the main group can subscribe to the chat subgroup with a single e-mail message, should they so choose, no avenue for what is currently being discussed, but is not NVDA focused, is being cut off.  We're simply asking that it occur in the chat subgroup.  There was no way to come up with a good subgroup name for "virtually anything not NVDA-centric" that was short, so chat became the choice for brevity's sake.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1809, Build 17763  

I cannot and will not cut my conscience to fit this year’s fashions . . .

       ~ Lillian Hellman, Letter to House Un-American Activities Committee, 5/19/1952