chat@nvda.groups.io | Self-Advocacy for Getting the Job

Brian Vogel

In the topic, explaining screen reader to sighted people, farhan israk wrote, in part: "They concluded that I will need more time to perform any task than a sighted person. So, they are not interested in moving forward."

I am not claiming to know anything, at the level of specifics, regarding the subject line other than knowing that those skills are absolutely essential. "The Clueless Sighted," do and always will exist, and there will always be more of them than either the clued-in or kinda-clued-in sighted or individuals who are blind. Getting hired is going to involve convincing many a "clueless sighted" person doing the hiring that you are perfectly capable of doing a job as well a a sighted counterpart would be.

We seem to have quite a few members of the NVDA group, and probably this Chat Subgroup, who are gainfully employed whether as independent contractors or under someone's employ. Regardless of which, you still had to convince someone who probably doubted that you could do your job that you can, indeed, do your job.

I started this topic so that anyone who's "been there, done that" as far as persuading potential employers who's willing to share just how can do so. What works for one person may not work for another, but it's likely to work or be part of what works for someone else.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit; Android 12 (MIUI 13)

The modern era has not eliminated faith--you could no more eliminate faith than love. Even atheists believe in atheism. The modern era has simply replaced spiritual faith in God with secular faith in man.

~ Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, Archbishop of Constantinople (1997)

Gene

#6656

The discussion raises the question about what you should demonstrate and how. I suspect it does often take blind people a little longer,, possibly not much, to do things, but whether that matters to any extent may depend on the job. I'm not assuming that you, farhan israk demonstrated something it would have been better not to, but I think the question of what and how you demonstrate something may be important.

Gene

I'm not assuming that

On 1/31/2023 2:20 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Show quoted text

In the topic, explaining screen reader to sighted people, farhan israk wrote, in part: "They concluded that I will need more time to perform any task than a sighted person. So, they are not interested in moving forward."

I am not claiming to know anything, at the level of specifics, regarding the subject line other than knowing that those skills are absolutely essential. "The Clueless Sighted," do and always will exist, and there will always be more of them than either the clued-in or kinda-clued-in sighted or individuals who are blind. Getting hired is going to involve convincing many a "clueless sighted" person doing the hiring that you are perfectly capable of doing a job as well a a sighted counterpart would be.

We seem to have quite a few members of the NVDA group, and probably this Chat Subgroup, who are gainfully employed whether as independent contractors or under someone's employ. Regardless of which, you still had to convince someone who probably doubted that you could do your job that you can, indeed, do your job.

I started this topic so that anyone who's "been there, done that" as far as persuading potential employers who's willing to share just how can do so. What works for one person may not work for another, but it's likely to work or be part of what works for someone else.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit; Android 12 (MIUI 13)

The modern era has not eliminated faith--you could no more eliminate faith than love. Even atheists believe in atheism. The modern era has simply replaced spiritual faith in God with secular faith in man.

~ Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, Archbishop of Constantinople (1997)

Tara Roys

#6660

I have a couple of ‘party tricks’ on hand to impress ableist people with my capabilities. I’m not blind, but I do regularly have to convince abelist people that I am ‘worth it.’

My trick is to have a ‘party trick’ or two that would take a ‘normal’ person ages to do, but that I can do in seconds in a way that is quite obviously related to my disabilities. For example, I tell people I am face blind, and then sketch a cartoon version their face in about a minute while I spin them a story that starts with ‘did you know everybody has unique eyebrows?’

I’m working on a couple of cell-phone based party tricks that involve using Siri Shortcuts to fake some ‘digital assistant’ interactions that are faster and funnier than regular siri.

I don’t give them time for whatever prejudice they have going to kick in- I just show up and do the trick and then ask a couple of really targeted questions that show that I have indeed looked up and researched their business.

I got most of my ‘party trick’ ideas from street performers who have about fifteen seconds to capture the attention of passers-by.

It’s taking advantage of the whole ‘disability as superpower’ prejudice, but it does slant the odds toward hiring me and change the perception of me from ‘deadweight’ to ‘magical wizard.’

-Tara

Show quoted text

On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 3:31 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

The discussion raises the question about what you should demonstrate and how. I suspect it does often take blind people a little longer,, possibly not much, to do things, but whether that matters to any extent may depend on the job. I'm not assuming that you, farhan israk demonstrated something it would have been better not to, but I think the question of what and how you demonstrate something may be important.

Gene

I'm not assuming that

On 1/31/2023 2:20 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

In the topic, explaining screen reader to sighted people, farhan israk wrote, in part: "They concluded that I will need more time to perform any task than a sighted person. So, they are not interested in moving forward."

I am not claiming to know anything, at the level of specifics, regarding the subject line other than knowing that those skills are absolutely essential. "The Clueless Sighted," do and always will exist, and there will always be more of them than either the clued-in or kinda-clued-in sighted or individuals who are blind. Getting hired is going to involve convincing many a "clueless sighted" person doing the hiring that you are perfectly capable of doing a job as well a a sighted counterpart would be.

We seem to have quite a few members of the NVDA group, and probably this Chat Subgroup, who are gainfully employed whether as independent contractors or under someone's employ. Regardless of which, you still had to convince someone who probably doubted that you could do your job that you can, indeed, do your job.

I started this topic so that anyone who's "been there, done that" as far as persuading potential employers who's willing to share just how can do so. What works for one person may not work for another, but it's likely to work or be part of what works for someone else.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit; Android 12 (MIUI 13)

The modern era has not eliminated faith--you could no more eliminate faith than love. Even atheists believe in atheism. The modern era has simply replaced spiritual faith in God with secular faith in man.

~ Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, Archbishop of Constantinople (1997)

Brian's Mail list account

#6662

One problem always was getting to the actual point when you are even allowed to demonstrate your talent, and even when you do, the person explaining the software talks in sighted terms like go left and tick the relevant box and all that.
I think as I got older my patience with the  people hiring grew shorter, thinking to myself, do you folk never actually learn about disabled people?
Brian

-- 
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

Show quoted text

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2023 9:31 PM
Subject: Re: [chat] Self-Advocacy for Getting the Job - Suggestions, experiences, etc.

The discussion raises the question about what you should demonstrate and
how. I suspect it does often take blind people a little longer,,
possibly not much, to do things, but whether that matters to any extent
may depend on the job. I'm not assuming that you, farhan israk
demonstrated something it would have been better not to, but I think the
question of what and how you demonstrate something may be important.

Gene

I'm not assuming that

On 1/31/2023 2:20 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
In the topic, /*explaining screen reader to sighted people*/
<https://nvda.groups.io/g/chat/topic/96632204>, farhan israk wrote, in
part: "They concluded that I will need more time to perform any task
than a sighted person. So, they are not interested in moving forward."

I am not claiming to know anything, at the level of specifics,
regarding the subject line other than knowing that those skills are
absolutely essential. "The Clueless Sighted," do and always will
exist, and there will always be more of them than either the clued-in
or kinda-clued-in sighted or individuals who are blind. Getting hired
is going to involve convincing many a "clueless sighted" person doing
the hiring that you are perfectly capable of doing a job as well a a
sighted counterpart would be.

We seem to have quite a few members of the NVDA group, and probably
this Chat Subgroup, who are gainfully employed whether as independent
contractors or under someone's employ. Regardless of which, you still
had to convince someone who probably doubted that you could do your
job that you can, indeed, do your job.

I started this topic so that anyone who's "been there, done that" as
far as persuading potential employers who's willing to share just how
can do so. What works for one person may not work for another, but
it's likely to work or be part of what works for someone else.
-- 

Brian - Virginia, USA- Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build
22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit; Android 12 (MIUI 13)

The modern era has not eliminated faith--you could no more eliminate
faith than love. Even atheists believe in atheism. The modern era
has simply replaced spiritual faith in God with secular faith in man.

~ Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, Archbishop of
Constantinople (1997)

Brian's Mail list account

#6663

I also suppose it can lighten the mood as well, but I was never that creative, I have to say.
Luckily now, in the main I only have myself  to please, and indeed one of my main reasons for going self employed toward the end was the stresses of interviews and the attitude of many co workers.
Brian

-- 
bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.(Virgin media)
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

Show quoted text

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Tara Roys" <tlroys@...>
To: <chat@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 01, 2023 1:21 AM
Subject: Re: [chat] Self-Advocacy for Getting the Job - Suggestions, experiences, etc.

I have a couple of ‘party tricks’ on hand to impress ableist people with my
capabilities. I’m not blind, but I do regularly have to convince abelist
people that I am ‘worth it.’

My trick is to have a ‘party trick’ or two that would take a ‘normal’
person ages to do, but that I can do in seconds in a way that is quite
obviously related to my disabilities.  For example, I tell people I am face
blind, and then sketch a cartoon version their face in about a minute while
I spin them a story that starts with ‘did you know everybody has unique
eyebrows?’

I’m working on a couple of cell-phone based party tricks that involve using
Siri Shortcuts to fake some ‘digital assistant’ interactions that are
faster and funnier than regular siri.

I don’t give them time for whatever prejudice they have going to kick in- I
just show up and do the trick and then ask a couple of really targeted
questions that show that I have indeed looked up and researched their
business.

I got most of my ‘party trick’ ideas from street performers who have about
fifteen seconds to capture the attention of passers-by.

It’s taking advantage of the whole ‘disability as superpower’ prejudice,
but it does slant the odds toward hiring me and change the perception of me
from ‘deadweight’ to ‘magical wizard.’

-Tara

On Tue, Jan 31, 2023 at 3:31 PM Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

The discussion raises the question about what you should demonstrate and
how.  I suspect it does often take blind people a little longer,, possibly
not much, to do things, but whether that matters to any extent may depend
on the job.  I'm not assuming that you, farhan israk demonstrated something
it would have been better not to, but I think the question of what and how
you demonstrate something may be important.

Gene

I'm not assuming that

On 1/31/2023 2:20 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

In the topic, *explaining screen reader to sighted people*
<https://nvda.groups.io/g/chat/topic/96632204>, farhan israk wrote, in
part: "They concluded that I will need more time to perform any task than a
sighted person. So, they are not interested in moving forward."

I am not claiming to know anything, at the level of specifics, regarding
the subject line other than knowing that those skills are absolutely
essential.  "The Clueless Sighted," do and always will exist, and there
will always be more of them than either the clued-in or kinda-clued-in
sighted or individuals who are blind.  Getting hired is going to involve
convincing many a "clueless sighted" person doing the hiring that you are
perfectly capable of doing a job as well a a sighted counterpart would be.

We seem to have quite a few members of the NVDA group, and probably this
Chat Subgroup, who are gainfully employed whether as independent
contractors or under someone's employ.  Regardless of which, you still had
to convince someone who probably doubted that you could do your job that
you can, indeed, do your job.

I started this topic so that anyone who's "been there, done that" as far
as persuading potential employers who's willing to share just how can do
so.  What works for one person may not work for another, but it's likely to
work or be part of what works for someone else.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build
22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit; Android 12 (MIUI 13)

The modern era has not eliminated faith--you could no more eliminate faith
than love.  Even atheists believe in atheism.  The modern era has simply
replaced spiritual faith in God with secular faith in man.

         ~ Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, Archbishop of
Constantinople (1997)

Brian Vogel

#6664
Edited

On Thu, Feb 2, 2023 at 03:45 AM, Brian's Mail list account wrote:

I think as I got older my patience with the people hiring grew shorter, thinking to myself, do you folk never actually learn about disabled people?

-
Brian,

What follows is meant with no malice nor snark, and needs to be considered by any blind individual working with an interviewer (and in other contexts as well). The honest answer to your rhetorical question is, "No." And the reason is because there is no practical reason to do so. And by practical I mean one does not dedicate tons of time for encounters so rare that they may very well never happen at all.

The following was written by David Chittenden, on the same "other topic" I alluded to in a very recent post on the NVDA group:
---

Ok, the true and actual numbers, as I fully researched them, across many different country statistics databases, official published sources of very high credibility (while I was preparing my PhD research proposal) follows:

The total population which is legally blind (visual acuity of 6/60 (20/200 US measurements) after correction, in the better eye; or with an entire field of 10 degrees (tunnel vision) is 0.4% to 0.55% depending on the level of development in the particular country.
---

Mind you, the above is is in regard to legally blind, which is a superset of totally blind. It really needs to sink in among the blind community just how tiny a minority you are, and just how infrequently you are actually encountered by the remaining 99.45% of the population, let alone interacted with at any length, let alone interacted with at any length in a technical setting.

It is entirely unrealistic, and will remain entirely unrealistic, to expect that most sighted people you meet will have any depth of knowledge about blindness, assistive technology related to same, or use "non-sight centric" cueing routinely. Why on God's green earth would they? It's just not a part of their daily lives, ever, unless they so happen to be in a situation where someone who is blind is a part of their sphere. That's just freakin' rare.

It is a metaphorical cross that those in any niche community must bear that constant self-advocacy and education of the clueless, but not malicious, is a part of daily existence. But it's never, ever going to change just because it is a numbers game.

Clueless sighted people don't hate you, nor want to keep you down (though even I'll admit that the latter happens, frequently, even without intent). But when some clueless, but sighted person, gives sighted instructions like, "That checkbox is at the upper left," the response should be, "Can you tell me what it says next to the checkbox, that's how I find it," gets you the result you need, and gives them the education they need. You might be surprised that after about 10 times around with that sort of cueing, at least for the remainder of your time together, they might even shift gears. This is a kind of code switching with which these sighted individuals likely have zero experience. They can't be expected to pull the correct cueing strategy out of their posteriors nor to instantaneously drop "the usual cueing strategy" because you happen to be blind. It's just human automaticity kicking in, and you need to help 'em break it. If you don't, you're certainly not helping yourself, nor helping them to perhaps become just the slightest bit more clued-in.
--

Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit; Android 12 (MIUI 13)

The modern era has not eliminated faith--you could no more eliminate faith than love. Even atheists believe in atheism. The modern era has simply replaced spiritual faith in God with secular faith in man.

~ Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, Archbishop of Constantinople (1997)