Why is it classified as a tree view?


Gene
 

I just found a very puzzling thing.  On another list, someone said they were in a tree view when they should have been in a list view.

They are in File Explorer in Windows 10.  I looked at the situation on my Windows 10 computer.  When I am in the list, Windows still says tree view.
Also, when I open Computer on the desktop, Windows says you are in a tree view when the way the structure functions is exactly like a list view.

Is this an error in Windows or is something that acts like a list view technically a tree view, if that even makes any sense?  If it is an error, it should be brought to the attention of Microsoft.

Gene


Gene
 

This appears to be an error in Windows.  If I open PC, I hear tree view.  If I use the command NVDA key tab, I am told that I am on list item one of eight.

I never thought it was an NVDA error, but I wondered if Windows, for some technical reason, had changed the classification of the structure.  Now that I see how NVDA key tab works in this structure, I am pretty convinced that this is a Windows error.

Gene

On 7/23/2022 7:40 PM, Gene wrote:
I just found a very puzzling thing.  On another list, someone said they were in a tree view when they should have been in a list view.

They are in File Explorer in Windows 10.  I looked at the situation on my Windows 10 computer.  When I am in the list, Windows still says tree view.
Also, when I open Computer on the desktop, Windows says you are in a tree view when the way the structure functions is exactly like a list view.

Is this an error in Windows or is something that acts like a list view technically a tree view, if that even makes any sense?  If it is an error, it should be brought to the attention of Microsoft.

Gene


 

On Sat, Jul 23, 2022 at 08:40 PM, Gene wrote:
Also, when I open Computer on the desktop, Windows says you are in a tree view when the way the structure functions is exactly like a list view.
-
You'd need to be a lot more specific about exactly what you're doing after firing up This PC from the desktop.

When I do this, and File Explorer initially opens, the focus is on This PC in the tree view and it is collapsed.  But if you hit down arrow, focus is immediately thrown to the file list (and I have no idea why, really, I would have thought you'd stay in the folder tree view and moved down one, but you don't).   I suspect this has to do with how focus shifts depending on what navigation command is issued next, or whether when one is on a collapsed entry in the tree view whether it is expanded before any attempt to navigate begins.

This will almost certainly come down to how focus shifts depending on what one has, or has not, done before starting to navigate.  By the way, that behavior with the focus shifting to the file list upon down arrow occurs in precisely the same way if no screen reader is in use, too, so we can definitely call that "a Windows behavior."
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

    ~Bertrand Russell


Gene
 

If you are on the desktop and press enter on computer, you are told you are in a tree view when you aren't, at least not by the visible structure.

When I open File Explorer with Windows key e, I am placed in the list view, by the visible structure, but I am informed that I am in a tree view.  I can shift tab once to get to the actual tree view according to the visible structure.

Gene
On 7/24/2022 11:42 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Sat, Jul 23, 2022 at 08:40 PM, Gene wrote:
Also, when I open Computer on the desktop, Windows says you are in a tree view when the way the structure functions is exactly like a list view.
-
You'd need to be a lot more specific about exactly what you're doing after firing up This PC from the desktop.

When I do this, and File Explorer initially opens, the focus is on This PC in the tree view and it is collapsed.  But if you hit down arrow, focus is immediately thrown to the file list (and I have no idea why, really, I would have thought you'd stay in the folder tree view and moved down one, but you don't).   I suspect this has to do with how focus shifts depending on what navigation command is issued next, or whether when one is on a collapsed entry in the tree view whether it is expanded before any attempt to navigate begins.

This will almost certainly come down to how focus shifts depending on what one has, or has not, done before starting to navigate.  By the way, that behavior with the focus shifting to the file list upon down arrow occurs in precisely the same way if no screen reader is in use, too, so we can definitely call that "a Windows behavior."
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

    ~Bertrand Russell



 

Gene,

I guess that depends on how you're defining "by the visible structure."

If I have focus on the "This PC" desktop icon, and open it by hitting enter, when no screen reader is involved, when it opens what it shows visually is that I have focus on the This PC entry in the tree view and it's got the focus/selection highlight.  But what's weird is that, in reality, you really aren't where the visual presentation suggests you should be.  If I use any of the navigation arrow keys I am clearly over in the file/folder list and that's where movement begins.

I have no idea why this split between what's showing, and where you actually start out, exists.  The screen reader can only report what's exposed to it, and it appears that what's initially exposed to it comports exactly with what I'm seeing.  But what happens when you start to navigate is that focus really isn't where File Explorer initially shows it to be.  I can't explain it any more than you can, but I can say that what the screen reader is reporting is consistent with what the visuals of File Explorer would lead even a sighted individual to believe, and it's telling us something that isn't true.

What's even more interesting, to me, anyway, is that if I do exactly the same thing with NVDA running, and using Focus Highlight, the focus highlight clearly falls on the first entry in the file/folder list when the File Explorer window is open, but the "for the sighted person" visuals remain and This PC has the usual Windows highlight that indicates focus is there.  Very weird.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

    ~Bertrand Russell


Gene
 

That's very odd, as you say.  What I mean by the visible structure is the way I move through the structure as a blind person.  But after your explanation, it needs to be qualified in that way.  I did notice something unusual in what NVDA says when I open Computer.  It says tree view and items view list which relates to what you are saying about how you appear to be in one structure and then when you move you appear to be in another.

So it appears that Windows is classifying the structure for what it is but I have no idea just what it is nor why it is structured that way.

Gene

On 7/24/2022 12:38 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Gene,

I guess that depends on how you're defining "by the visible structure."

If I have focus on the "This PC" desktop icon, and open it by hitting enter, when no screen reader is involved, when it opens what it shows visually is that I have focus on the This PC entry in the tree view and it's got the focus/selection highlight.  But what's weird is that, in reality, you really aren't where the visual presentation suggests you should be.  If I use any of the navigation arrow keys I am clearly over in the file/folder list and that's where movement begins.

I have no idea why this split between what's showing, and where you actually start out, exists.  The screen reader can only report what's exposed to it, and it appears that what's initially exposed to it comports exactly with what I'm seeing.  But what happens when you start to navigate is that focus really isn't where File Explorer initially shows it to be.  I can't explain it any more than you can, but I can say that what the screen reader is reporting is consistent with what the visuals of File Explorer would lead even a sighted individual to believe, and it's telling us something that isn't true.

What's even more interesting, to me, anyway, is that if I do exactly the same thing with NVDA running, and using Focus Highlight, the focus highlight clearly falls on the first entry in the file/folder list when the File Explorer window is open, but the "for the sighted person" visuals remain and This PC has the usual Windows highlight that indicates focus is there.  Very weird.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.  Everybody knows that this is untrue. . .

    ~Bertrand Russell



Patrick Le Baudour
 

Hi,

Isn't the tree view mentioned here actually the one in the navigation pane? As if the focus was changed just long enough to change the currently focused folder, but somehow going back to the file list doesn't get through ...

-- Patrick LB

Le 25/07/2022 à 01:36, Gene a écrit :
That's very odd, as you say.  What I mean by the visible structure is the way I move through the structure as a blind person.  But after your explanation, it needs to be qualified in that way.  I did notice something unusual in what NVDA says when I open Computer.  It says tree view and items view list which relates to what you are saying about how you appear to be in one structure and then when you move you appear to be in another.
So it appears that Windows is classifying the structure for what it is but I have no idea just what it is nor why it is structured that way.
Gene
On 7/24/2022 12:38 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Gene,

I guess that depends on how you're defining "by the visible structure."

If I have focus on the "This PC" desktop icon, and open it by hitting enter, when no screen reader is involved, when it opens what it shows visually is that I have focus on the This PC entry in the tree view and it's got the focus/selection highlight.  But what's weird is that, in reality, you really aren't where the visual presentation suggests you should be.  If I use any of the navigation arrow keys I am clearly over in the file/folder list and that's where movement begins.

I have no idea why this split between what's showing, and where you actually start out, exists.  The screen reader can only report what's exposed to it, and it appears that what's initially exposed to it comports exactly with what I'm seeing.  But what happens when you start to navigate is that focus really isn't where File Explorer initially shows it to be.  I can't explain it any more than you can, but I can say that what the screen reader is reporting is consistent with what the visuals of File Explorer would lead even a sighted individual to believe, and it's telling us something that isn't true.

What's even more interesting, to me, anyway, is that if I do exactly the same thing with NVDA running, and using Focus Highlight, the focus highlight clearly falls on the first entry in the file/folder list when the File Explorer window is open, but the "for the sighted person" visuals remain and This PC has the usual Windows highlight that indicates focus is there.  Very weird.
--

Brian -Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

*/The psychology of adultery has been falsified by conventional morals, which assume, in monogamous countries, that attraction to one person cannot co-exist with a serious affection for another.Everybody knows that this is untrue. . ./*

~Bertrand Russell