locked Re: controls on one line

David Goldfield

I don't think that we should count Home Page Reader, Window-Eyes or Winvision in discussions like this since they are discontinued products which haven't been developed in years. If we're going to do that then we may as well say that Word should conform better with Wordstar or that Chrome should consider emulating Netscape Navigator or Lynx. That being said I will say that I tend to agree with Gene on this issue in general. I do agree that certain crutches should be avoided if it all possible; the JAWS ribbon menus come to mind here. However, since NVDA does make a point of emulating the behavior of other screen readers with respect to its browse mode commands, (H for heading, E for edit field, etc.) then I feel that a valid case could be made for controls to appear on a separate line to further maintain some additional compatibility with other screen readers that some users may already be used to. That's my view but it's not an issue that I'm willing to invest a lot of energy in defending or in advocating for. The default is fine for me. I admit that I do switch screen layout off as one of the first things that I do with a fresh NVDA install and it's no skin off my nose to do it. I can easily show a user how it can be disabled if the user wants it disabled. Do I think that screen layout being disabled should be the default behavior? Yes. We can always suggest it as a feature request in Github but beyond that I have nothing else to add.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

NVDA Certified Expert

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-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, October 7, 2022 12:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controls on one line

I just thought of another product that used one link and control on one line as the default, Home Page Reader.  That's four to one. Numbers don't make something correct but in this case, where you can provide very good arguments for changing the default, and since the NVDA default is not what is generally used, I think the matter should receive attention from developers.

I don't think this difference would make any difference on whether and how well blind people can work with sighted people on web pages.  First, I don't think that, even using screen layout, we receive the page in anything like a similar manner to the way a sighted person is shown it in a lot or most cases and when working with sighted people, they never talk about things like the second link to the right on a line.  They talk about this or that link on the right side of the page but we don't see that positioning anyway.

On 10/7/2022 11:27 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Since this is the default in nvda, we should get used to it IMHO. I really don't see an issue with it, it has not for the longest time been an issue, I really don't see why it is now. The default is more streamline IMHO re web browsers.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, October 7, 2022 9:22 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controls on one line

You may prefer one setting but this has absolutely nothing to do with adapting.
Screen-readers are made for use by blind people. I think there is a very good reason that no other screen-reader I've used, three of them, uses this as the default setting. Just because a page appears visually to a sighted person with some links and some controls more than one on a line does not mean that is the prefered setting by most blind people. Stop conflating what you prefer with adapting or not adapting. There are lots of cases where you can justifiably speak about the need to adapt. This is not one.


On 10/7/2022 10:54 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
Not everything is for the blind in mind. I am so used to things on one line I to turn the setting off when needed but mostly it's on so I can read through the page quicker and with less arrow presses, especially if I'm not familiar with how the page looks. We live in a sighted world, , adapt to it. I personally think the setting should be on by default. This has been the way of nvda since 2010, when I started using it, I see no reason to change now.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, October 7, 2022 7:58 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controls on one line

Learn to adapt? In what context? This isn't a context where we are adapting to something in the sighted world. This is a behavior that is the default behavior in a product for blind people. It has nothing to do with adapting. This is not the standard setting in the field and in the ticket I linked to, one person specifically said that this default setting is confusing to those who are switching from another screen-reader.

On 10/7/2022 9:44 AM, Sarah k Alawami wrote:
I actually like to see what the page looks like so I leave it on. Then I turn it off if needed. However, that's just I. I will mnot be contributing to the ticket as I like it the way it is, we should learn to adapt as we can't always have it how x screen reading software had it etc.

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Thursday, October 6, 2022 5:38 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controls on one line

I've been saying for years that it should be off by default. Maybe if more people who agree with me let their views be known, a change might be considered with some seriousness..

Here is a Github ticket on the topic:

Even though it is closed, you can still comment and the topic may be reopened.

There are times, when reading some message boards, for example, that it is advantageous to have it on. For most uses, it is a disadvantage.

And as you say, I know of no other screen-reader, not JAWS, the late Window-eyes, nor System Access, that uses such a setting as the default.


On 10/6/2022 7:00 PM, Bob Cavanaugh wrote:
I've just taken a look at all messages in this topic, and yes, you
want screen layout off. This IMO is a setting that should be off by
default, as NVDA is the only screen reader I've used that displays
controls inline by default, and I can never remember the name of
the setting to change when I get a new computer, which is about
every three or four years.
On a related question, there appear to be some webpages that ignore
this setting, and I'm not sure why. The best example I can think of
is any of the external links from radio station articles on Wikipedia.
Even with screen layout off, the links for Neilson, the FCC
database, and Radio Locator are displayed inline.

On 10/6/22, Don H <lmddh50@...> wrote:
running latest NVDA on a win 11 system. Forgot where the setting
is to have each control on a separate line versus on same line.


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