Re: spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable


Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...>
 

If you listen to the interview on cool blind tech about accessibility from the English lady, you will hear that they fully intend to keep support for third party readers as well as develop their narrator. I personally still do not like the Narrator its got lots of issues like lag and many missing features. After all, just because Msoft have a mail program it does not mean you cannot use another one same with browsers and word processors.

Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@blueyonder.co.uk, putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Shaun Everiss" <sm.everiss@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2016 3:02 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable


Well no one makes more apple screen readers.
I agree with you we do need more choice.
But the average blind person can't afford the 3000 dollars pluss nz for something so there isn't choice.
We have nvda which is good.
narator which is ok maybe.
Window eyes which is only good if you spend 500 bucks on office pro, dolphin supernova which is well 1000 to 1500 and jaws which is 3000.
We have satogo I guess but we don't have any other free screen readers.
I agree in a perfect world we would have different readers for different programs but the comercial ones cost a lot of cash.



On 17/11/2016 12:03 p.m., Gene wrote:
For years, Microsoft was criticized for being a monopoly. Blind people who want Microsoft to build their own powerful screen-reader are asking Microsoft to take actions that would make them much more like a monopoly in the area of screen-readers. Demanding blind users routinely have more than one screen-reader on their machines. That's because one screen-reader may work well with a program and allow them to use the program well where other screen-readers may not. Why should businesses and foundations support work by NVDA if Windows produces a powerful screen-reader. Depending on what the Microsoft screen-reader could do, it might reduce choice by causing one or more other screen-reader companies to go out of business as well. Monopolies often result in more expensive products and reduced competition and choice. That is simply a historical economic fact.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Shaun Everiss
Sent: Wednesday, November 16, 2016 4:50 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] spss inaccessibility: absolutely inexcusable


Well it semi is.
Ms never gave us a reader in the past.
This has forced comercial companies to make their own things to work.
Ofcause they will now go at ms for trying to steal their market I would.
I do think though sadly that the comercial reader market is for funders
at schools and things and I am unsure if that rings true anymore as such
now anyway.
Lets hope ms actually do just say screw them all and do it.
They technically could, they will just have to work with others.
I also don't believe all this stuff about putting blind people out of work.
Maybe a few of their blind people loosly out of work, I am blind, I
don't work they act like the blind have a job which in reality they don't.
Those companies can get rid of their people when they like its a really
nasty argument to be honest.
When I had school and uni and got funding for things up to 2006 it was
oh you can get a job, its so false, I won't go into it fully but fact is
the fake story they spin to make the poor helpless blind feel better
sickens me.
I'd prefur they told me how it was when I was old enough instead of me
discovering it on my own.
Even with the intergration the mainstream is not interested in the blind.
Its not even because of our helplessness, the mainstream world goes
faster than the disabled in general even for themselves the corperate
life is no picnic.
Even if we get a job even with a few of us in the large companies for
the rest of us if there is a job it will be either something we get
ourselves or for something we will manage.
I want to work and bar a few contracts way under the bottom end of the
standard dollar, I actually spend my life like a normal disabled person
does, at home, doing anything by a normal working day.
I really wish they wouldn't use that trump card maybe in the 60s and 80s
it had some sort of traction but now, you either find your own nitch,
struggle along and are left behind in the dust.
After I found how false it was, I decided to quit trying to even find a
job normally because it was false and try to forge my own path where I can.
If they that just want the cash want the perfect dream they are welcome
to it.
I doubt that once it gets down to it the big users that is normal users
and I am sure there are a lot of them after they quit school are not
going to bother with a comercial reader.
I do use dolphin products for a few games that nvda doesn't but I use
nvda as an exclusive now to what I am doing.
They are losing out now.
Due to the fact I don't work in the mainstream I don't need mainstream
programs like office.
The big readers kater to office mainly and as secondary cater to other
things.
I'd like to think that something like nvda at least caters to well
everything from user programs to business programs to almost anything.



On 17/11/2016 10:02 a.m., Travis Siegel wrote:
I know narrator bites as a general purpose screen reader, but that's not
microsoft's fault. MS tried to build a general purpose screen reader
(just like Apple did), but when they tried, organizations like the NFB
jumped all over them screaming about how bad it would be for the screen
reader market if MS had their own screen reader, and how many blind
people it would put out of work, how ms would be able to do things with
their screen reader third-party screen readers couldn't, and so on and
so on. As a result, MS had to scale back the functionality of narrator
turning it into what it has become. So, in this particular case, you
can't blame MS for the state of narrator, they actually tried, and were
blocked by special interest groups. Admittedly, I'm no fan of
Microsoft, and defending them is the last thing I would want to do, but
in this particular for instance, it truly isn't their fault.



On 11/16/2016 3:10 PM, Shaun Everiss wrote:
One thing while we are on the subject which concerns me is how chummy
some of our tech reviewers are.
I know for example that cool blind tech is up and cosy with microsoft
maintaining that narator is really good as a primary reader.
Narator has never been good as a primary reader, its why I am using nvda.
In 10 they are trying to make it better but I can't trust them
anymore, why are we buying jaws, using nvda and other things when we
could just use narator.
Narator was bad to start off with, its reputation as far as I care is
ruined.
Its just the microsoft setup screen reader on a windows desktop now in
mobile it aparently works for its apps.
But we want more than microsoft apps.



On 17/11/2016 6:49 a.m., Travis Siegel wrote:
This is something folks generally don't realize. Jaws is nothing but a
glorified scripting engine. If you deleted all the scripts from jaws,
there would be next to nothing it could do all by itself. This is an
approach I never liked, and I never understood why screen readers didn't
make more of an effort to just read what's on the screen, regardless of
what/where it was. NVDA works hard to accomplish this, and this was
also the approach of windowbridge (hey, I didn't bring it up), It's
always boggled my mind how little the commercial screen readers (with
the exception of windowbridge) could do on their own. I'm strongly of
the opinion that script based screen readers are useless, because if
there is no script, the program can't do anything. If it mad an attempt
to see what was on the screen, at least then you have a fighting chance
to find what you need on the screen, even if it doesn't know what it
is. I never understood the whole scripting approach myself, but some
folks seem to like it, so I guess if it works for them, then more power
to them, but it certainly isn't my choice, I'd much prefer to have a
screen reader that at least makes an attempt to see what's on the
screen, instead of saying, oh well, no script, can't help you.



On 11/16/2016 11:11 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

SPSS (if it's the same SPSS <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SPSS> I
know of, and it probably is), was originally called the Statistical
Package for the Social Sciences, is ancient, and has long since come
into common use for number crunching in many disciplines. That being
said, SPSS was developed long before accessibility was on virtually
anyone's radar.

I was, for a very long time, under the grossly mistaken impression
that screen readers had been developed such that they could make a
decent attempt to read virtually anything that might pop up on a
screen. I was recently disabused of that notion when working with a
client who was expected to be able to use Interaction Desktop by
Interaction Intelligence and a number of custom screen-based, but not
web-based, programs developed for the client company. It became
abundantly clear instantly that JAWS (in this case, but it could have
been any screen reader, this isn't JAWS bashing) was utterly incapable
of interpreting the first thing that was on the screen because the
underlying scripting for these applications did not exist. We take
for granted the way screen readers do function with common office
suites and web browsers because an untold number of hours have been
dedicated to creating the scripting that ships with them to handle
these programs. There is no way that any company can develop scripts
"for everything" so the focus will logically be on the things that can
benefit the most people in the most settings. SPSS is absolutely a
niche market, writ large. In the context of the population at large,
blind or not, very, very few people will ever touch SPSS. That would
not be a logical place to dedicate a lot of resources to as a result.

The above being said, after my experience with the client I made
reference to, I was able to determine that there are several sites
that had blind individuals using the software in question and that a
significant scripting base was in place already and I believe it was
actually done by Freedom Scientific. What I do not understand is why
companies like Freedom Scientific, when they're doing this work, do
not have some contractual language in place that allows them to add
said scripts to a central repository that they would maintain. It is
insane to keep reinventing the wheel, and that's exactly what happens
when it comes to relatively little used commercial software when
scripts have to be created, again and again, for each blind user at
each site. I was shocked that Freedom Scientific could not tell me
whether any scripts existed or whether JAWS was known to have been
used over Interaction Desktop. Screen readers themselves are niche
markets in the grand scheme of things and they would be boosting their
respective reputations and really serving an important function of
increasing accessibility for niche products if they set themselves up
as centralized script repositories, with the proviso that they are not
actively maintaining said scripts, just so a baseline would exist to
work with when needed.

You can't convince me that SPSS hasn't been scripted, probably
hundreds of times now, but where, for what screen reader or screen
readers, who knows?
--
*/Brian/*

*/Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.
If you’re alive, it isn’t./*

//~ Lauren Bacall









.

Join nvda@nvda.groups.io to automatically receive all group messages.