Re: Electing a new moderator

Austin Pinto <austinpinto.xaviers@...>

no no.
Joseph is asking for nominations and also a person responding if they
want to take the charge or no.

On 3/23/16, Fanus <buys.fanus@...> wrote:
Hello list
Just my few sents: is it not better to ask who is willing to take Joseph’s
place instead of doing an election. With nominations a person nominated can
feel important although he or she does not really want to do the job while a
person who comes forward and offers to act as moderator is really interested
and able.

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 1:23 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

I just hope whoever takes Joseph's place will be as good as he was.

On 3/22/2016 4:12 PM, Gene wrote:

Michael Lee was a perfect stranger when he began. If a perfect stranger
does a bad job of moderating, there will be plenty of time to leave the
list. it is common for moderators to leave lists and be replaced by someone
who is a perfect stranger to a lot of most list members.

----- Original Message -----

From: Rosemarie Chavarria
Sent: Tuesday, March 22, 2016 6:07 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Electing a new moderator

Hi, Lino,

I agree that Joseph has done a damn good job of running this list. I
might just leave the group too if the list has to be run by a perfect
stranger. It's a shame that Joseph has to step down.


On 3/22/2016 2:36 PM, Lino Morales wrote:
> I also agree with Gene here. Joseph has done a damn fine job running
> the list. Heck we hear from him mor than Nimer probably cause he works
> etc. etc. If this list is going to be run like this in future I don't
> want any part of it. Just my 2cents.
> On 3/22/2016 9:29 AM, Laz wrote:
>> Hello,
>> I must say that I wholeheartedly agree with Gene. I will also add that
>> voting on names of strangers to be elected to an important position
>> such as a list moderator could end up having an unqualified candidate
>> who may have other intentions than those mentioned being voted into
>> the position and given power to do as they secretly intend. Just look
>> at the track history of politics. List ownership and moderation is not
>> a democratic process by any means. We have no idea as to the true
>> character of most list members. I have already seen one proposal for a
>> candidate which I'm not certain would make a good moderator as I
>> believe it's an alias of someone else on the list and that's all I'm
>> going to say about that. I sincerely hope that Nimer will keep the
>> power of veto and put a stop to any unqualified person being voted
>> into the role of moderator.
>> Laz
>> On 3/22/16, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
>>> I spent a lot of time and thought replying to this message. Now I
>>> see that
>>> it was rejected because of restricted hash tags. I shall send it
>>> again with
>>> another subject line and I shall make one additional commenbt at the
>>> outset
>>> Since I initially wrote my message, I have seen the start of what
>>> probably be an avalanche of messages regarding nominations and
>>> discussions
>>> of nominees. I did not join this list to receive hundreds or
>>> thousands of
>>> administration messages nor did most who joined. We joined to
>>> discuss NVDA,
>>> not how to run the list nor who should be in charge.
>>> I appreciate the work you have done in moderating the list and I
>>> appreciate
>>> your intentions. But this is just not the way to run a list. If you
>>> are
>>> determined to run the list as a democracy, please set up a chat
>>> subgroup for
>>> those who want to discuss nominations and make submissions or ask
>>> that such
>>> submissions be sent to you off list, either or both. The main NVDA
>>> list
>>> should be to discuss NVDA and not democratic administrative nor
>>> election
>>> matters except to announce the actual election and present
>>> information about
>>> the nominees.
>>> Here is what I wrote previously.
>>> I almost never comment on list administration on the list but this
>>> is an
>>> exception. If you want to step down, that's your decision and I am
>>> writing to question or challenge the decision. But generational
>>> change,
>>> when the generation in question is probably in its late twenties or
>>> early
>>> thirties at most makes no sense as a reason. If you are worried
>>> succession, then it would be far better to have some mechanism where
>>> you
>>> appoint someone to take over with the prior approval of the list
>>> I have never been on, nor ever heard, of a list run like a
>>> democracy. There
>>> are good reasons for this. This is not a democracy, where people
>>> records and attributes that are known to most members regarding list
>>> administration. There a very few active members and most discussion
>>> about NVDA in some way. If members were asked to vote on who has
>>> the most
>>> knowledge of NVDA, for example, there would be some grounds for
>>> members to
>>> vote. But this is a list to discuss NVDA. It is not a place where
>>> people
>>> display records of leadership and personality that members are aware
>>> of and
>>> can use to choose a leader. (I don't even know the names of more
>>> perhaps ten or twenty members on the list and I know them not
>>> because of any
>>> demonstrated personality traits that relate to running the list. I
>>> know
>>> them because they discuss NVDA. There is no corellation between
>>> that and
>>> being able to determine who has the qualities best suited to run a
>>> list.
>>> You may know people well enough yourself to make such a
>>> determination and
>>> frankly, in this context, you and the list owner should do so. I
>>> shall,
>>> respectfully, not vote in the upcoming election. I am not
>>> knowledgeable and
>>> cannot cast an informed meaningful vote and most list members can't
>>> cast an
>>> informed meaningful vote either.
>>> If the list were really a democratic institution, we would have
>>> holding office with campaigns and some sort of mechanisms for people
>>> to get
>>> to know and evaluate those who serve and run for office. There would
>>> periodic elections. If we make a mistake and appoint someone who
>>> does not
>>> do a good job in error, this being a list, not a democratic
>>> institution, we
>>> have no means of recall or no periodic elections to replace the
>>> person. We
>>> are electing someone for an indefinite term with most members having
>>> meaningful information on which to make a decision.
>>> On every list I've been on, the owner runs the list and makes
>>> relevant to administration and the owner and moderators decide how
>>> to divide
>>> up tasks such as moderation. As I said, there are good reasons that
>>> lists
>>> are not run as democracies.
>>> And making some sort of divide in generations when the generation in
>>> their
>>> late twenties or early thirties has most of its collective life to
>>> live is a
>>> really bad idea. The United States Constitution has minimum ages for
>>> assuming different offices. That's because it was believed that
>>> knowledge,
>>> wisdom, and maturity increase with age. What about all those who
>>> may be in
>>> their forties, fifties, sixties, and beyond who may be better
>>> qualified by
>>> the knowledge and experience they have gotten? Are you taking the
>>> position
>>> that anyone under the age of thirty, for example will be considered
>>> to run
>>> the list but those older won't?
>>> The more I think about the reason you gave for stepping down and the
>>> means
>>> you propose to fill the vacancy, the more I realize what a bad
>>> rationale and
>>> procedure it is. And a further irony is that you propose a
>>> election to fill the position but you haven't held an election on
>>> whether
>>> the list should be run as a democracy or in the traditional or other
>>> way.
>>> Isn't that the first thing that should be decided by democratic
>>> means if the
>>> list is a democratic institution? Democracy is not suited to all
>>> institutions and this list is one of them.
>>> As I said at the outset, if you want to step down, I have no quarrel
>>> with
>>> that decision. That is your decision and I am not writing to
>>> question the
>>> decision. But I strongly disagree with the reason given and the
>>> procedure
>>> to fill the vacancy.
>>> I considered writing you off list but, if the list is being run as a
>>> democracy, it follows that other list members should know my
>>> thoughts on
>>> this matter.
>>> Gene
>>> ------ Original Message -----
>>> From: Joseph Lee
>>> Sent: Monday, March 21, 2016 10:26 PM
>>> To:
>>> Subject: [nvda] Important moderator's letter: I'd like to request
>>> generation of NVDA enthusiasts to come to the moderator's seat
>>> #ModNotice
>>> #AdminNotice
>>> Dear members of the NVDA International Users list and the wider NVDA
>>> community:
>>> For some, change of generation is a scary thing, while others would
>>> say it
>>> is a wonderful way to reflect upon our past and think about the
>>> future. As a
>>> moderator of this list and the chair of the NVDA Tenth Anniversary
>>> Planning
>>> Committee, I had a chance to think about this today. Specifically, I
>>> was
>>> struck by the following thought: If I die tonight, who'll carry on
>>> my legacy
>>> and serve as a moderator who'll shower you with more love than I did?
>>> You see, for some time, I thought it is better to let a generational
>>> change
>>> happen. We now have members of the next generation who are very
>>> enthusiastic
>>> about NVDA and its community, people who are showing leadership
>>> potential
>>> and folks who are willing to love and serve you and the wider
>>> community. And
>>> I thought that this is a good time to carry this out, seeing that
>>> some of
>>> these new enthusiasts are the ones who are actively involved in
>>> promoting
>>> NVDA and events related to its tenth anniversary.
>>> Thus, effective May 31, 2016, I'll step down from the moderator
>>> position I
>>> held for the past three years. I'd like to request that members of
>>> this list
>>> hold a list-wide election to elect the new moderator. I'll remain a
>>> member
>>> of this list, obeying the new moderator and serving the NVDA
>>> Thank you everyone for your support for the past few years.
>>> Cheers,
>>> Joseph
>>> P.S. My blog post on this decision can be found at:


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