Re: controlling the mouse?


David Moore
 

Hi Shaun,

I think you are talking to me, David. I am the one who talked about forming that visual picture. However, I totally agree with you Shaun! I have sighted friends using key commands, and they agree that it is much faster. I have shown people how to do things in computer labs, and I did two key commands and had them going. Sighted only know that mouse, and they are lost and fool around and try for an hour to find something. I am 50, so the DOS days were the most exciting time for me. Wow, I helped supervisors where I worked, because they did not know the DOS commands; therefore, they could not use a computer. I had the DOS commands memorized, so I had high up supervisors coming to me for help using their computers LOLOL! I like to get people thinking. There is the problem on the job with telling your boss what you are trying to do with your screen reader. That is why it is good to be able to translate from mouse to key commands and the other way around. We need to tell our boss words like that we are trying to click. If we tell a co-worker that we are trying to get the applications key working, they will not know what we are talking about. We should know that the applications brings up the same context menu as the right click does. We then can say right click instead of applications key and so on. That is just a small point I am trying to get across. However, the sighted could learn a lot from the blind, and I make sure they learn from me. The computer is a grand machine, because we can control it in so many different ways. I agree as well, that the sighted are using more and more of what the blind use, like e-books, and audio books to listen to while they are driving. Talking to a device is becoming very universal, that is true. Many CEO's are talking to their computers, because they do not have time to type. Take care, Shaun, I really enjoyed your well thought out post. This has been fun. I would like to talk about tearing computers apart all day. Shaun, my email is:

Jesusloves1966@...

Give me a shout, I would really like to talk with you.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Shaun Everiss
Sent: Friday, February 3, 2017 4:05 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

 

I half aggree with you jean.

Being that I work with tech, I am always translating the commands from

mice to keyboards, sometimes the mouse works sometimes it flat out doesn't.

I rarely use it as much as I should.

I do know that in some ways a touch pad is easier.

In fact a cheap no frills logitech pad is barely 20 bucks here which is

cheaper than the cheapest mouse which is 30-40 bucks for a basic one here.

Ofcause these pads are self contained.

Ie you plug it in, and windows tries to find what it is.

It triggers it to then somehow go online and get the drivers for itself

and install itself so its either got drivers in firmware or knows where

online to get those drivers.

Once those are installed the firmware and drivers will autoupdate

themselves.

To be honest, if I did what a blindy would do I wouldn't use windows,

just dos, I wouldn't use anything bar a keynote or jaws because that was

what I was taught.

In most cases we can use most things as a sighted would do, we do use

more shortcuts which can be an advantage but its still the sighted way

of doing things.

Gaming we still have a bit to go mouse wise but if you really want to be

serious there are joysticks and game pads anyway.

The idea of the old mouse is changing and thats a good thing.

TTs and voice recognition are also more excepted.

Even screen reading to some extent is still accepted.

Ofcause anything to graphical is still a problem but with acception with

most security software and some video converting and recording apps most

stuff does work to some extent.

I actually think it needs to be the other way round, the sighted should

do more things the blind way.

For example how many people do you know or have been seen/ heard by you

hitting the wrong key or going all round the screen.

For the blind person we know what to do and we just do it and it works!

On the flip side we can miss things so take your pick.

For me as long as the system boots, and I get sound I can service

computers with a sound card, a usb headset, and a keyboard and have no

screen unless something hoses itself fully.

In an extreme version of this about 15 years back when we had win 98

going xp, my brother had a system we decided to clear the dust out of

with an air compresser.

We have gotten a bit better with this, but the last time we managed to

blast several chips off the main board.

The unit was old anyway, however it just stopped booting and when it

did, all video stopped.

I was able to get the data backed up to several cds and transfer it over.

If I needed sight, I'd have to take it to our friendly computer fix it

guy, and he would have to recover the drives or something.

This would take more time and cost more cash.

In addition I have had it where repair shops have done bad things to

systems, ie loaded them with malware and offers, not cleared themselves

up, etc, etc.

Anyway I had the experience where they charged for backup and transfer

and when we tried to nagotiate, all the drives, both backup and primary

were reformatted, they refused to aknowledge the issue we were having

and all data including backups were scrubbed.

The company used went bust shortly after and granted this was an extreme

case but it was a lot faster and in that case I was happy to not be sighted.

I can slso via standard shortcuts get access to things faster than the

sighted.

I think the sighted are in some ways more blind than the blind are sighted.

They read a manual and well if it doesn't work they go crying to support.

I never recieved training as such, I branched out by looking and seeing

what things did.

True I did end up destroying and rebuilding my unit several times but I

got to know what I needed.

That concept plus a lot of others are gone with windows, and later tech

but you get the idea.

Mainstream has come a long while to when I was a boy, and so I just

can't fully agree with your statement.

I do think in the end you need to use your gut and see what happens.

If I did everything the blind way, I wouldn't be online, my training

wasn't to use modern computers.

 

 

 

On 3/02/2017 9:07 p.m., Gene wrote:

> I am not a sighted person.  I do things in the best way I know for a blind person to do them.  If a technique a sighted person uses serves me better than another, I'll use it.  If a technique that works better for me as a blind person works better, I'll use it.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: jesusloves1966@...

> Sent: Friday, February 03, 2017 1:52 AM

> To: Gene ; nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: RE: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> Hi all,

> There is something else that excites me about the golden cursor. I like to be able to do a task like a sighted person does instead of always using navigation commands. It is harder to move the mouse instead of using object review or screen review, and routing the mouse to that spot. However, when I can move my mouse around and find a control in a program with the mouse pointer, it sure gives me a sense of satisfaction. I get so excited, when I can do something like a sighted person. I use object and screen review to the max, and do everything I can with key commands, but it really excites me when I can move the mouse pointer around and find something just like a sighted person. When I show a sighted person how I move the mouse pointer and save positions with Golden cursor, that excites them about my assistive technology much more than when they see me using key commands. We all need to show off what we can do to sighted friends, to get the sighted excited about what the blind can do. So, there is a reason to use the Golden cursor for excitement and fun, and not just to get the job done. I don't like to just get the job done. I like to get a visual picture of everything and do something just like I would if I was sighted. I don't know if any of you feel that way or not. I want the sighted seeing my technology, as well as the blind. Moving the mouse with Golden cursor, is something sighted friends can really relate to, because they use the mouse. I only use a computer a third of the time to get the job done. The other two thirds of the time is to be adventurous and try doing tasks different ways, and always be researching how something might be done. A lot of inventions have been made by doing just that, not just getting the job done. I am a research person, not someone who just wants to get the job done. Maybe that is why I get excited over something like Golden cursor, because you can actually move the mouse around. I can't stress enough, that it really helps the blind to have a visual picture of where everything is on the screen. If you always use key commands, you do not know the visual layout, and where things are in your mind. I am a very visual person even though I am blind, if that makes sense. I had half of my sight until I was 15, and I constantly think as I saw then. I am 50 now, and I still have good light perception. Maybe that makes a difference of why I have to have a visual picture of everything to be happy. Only using key commands, a blind person is left without a visual reference. I am always asking sighted people where the mouse is on the computer screen if I am using JAWS. This is why I love NVDA and Golden Cursor, because I can hear in pixels of where something is on the screen, and get a picture in my mind of where that is. No matter what I do, even with key commands, I want to see it in my mind like I am looking at the screen. Does anyone else feel like this. I learn better if I can see something in my mind instead of just memorizing a bunch of key commands and not having a visual reference of what those commands are doing on the screen. It is the same with me and a phone. I want to picture the icons and everything. I wish NVDA told us what the icons looked like, what color they are and so on. Let me know what you think about all of this. Let us love technology as well as just getting the job done. Take care, guys,

> David Moore

> Sent from Mail for Windows 10

> From: Gene

> Sent: Thursday, February 2, 2017 11:37 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> I didn't say that.  I said that numpad insert numpad slash moves the mouse to the location of the review cursor.  I also said that the left click command is numpad slash.  Just numpad slash by itself.

> Gene

> ----- Original Message -----

> From: Travis Siegel

> Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 10:14 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

> In your original email, you said that numpad zero/insert and the slash key would move the cursor to the location of the mouse.  I'm saying that command performs a left click, it does not move the mouse cursor (or any other cursor) anywhere, if you want to move the cursor, you want the shift-numpad-dash key combination.  That's all I'm saying now, and that's all I said to start with.  Go back and read your email again (I did), and it clearly says move the cursor with the numpad and slash key combo, that information is incorrect, I simply corrected that information, that's all, this doesn't have to be a long drawn out thread, simply to correct a key combination.

> On 2/2/2017 12:26 PM, Gene wrote:

>   I just looked at the commands given on the Golden Cursor page.  No such commands are given.

>   Gene

>   ----- Original Message -----

>   From: Gene

>   Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 11:12 AM

>   To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

>   Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

>   Are you giving commands for NVDA or the Golden cursor add on?  The commands may be correct for the Golden Cursor add on, I don't know.  For NVDA the move mouse to review position is as I stated.  For NVDA, to click the mouse command is numpad slash.

>   Gene

>   ----- Original Message -----

>   From: Travis Siegel

>   Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 9:25 AM

>   To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

>   Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

>   The command to move the focus to something is shift-numpad zero-dash This will move the actual focus of the mouse to the position in question.  I believe the numpad zero-slash key simulates a left button click, not actual focus movement.

>   On 2/2/2017 8:23 AM, Gene wrote:

>     In the first copy of this message I sent to the list I mistakenly have a phrase at the end that says something like announce items under the mouse.  That was an error and I have removed it from this copy.

>     Gene

>     There may be objects you can find with the mouse that you can't find using object review or screen review, I don't know.  But much of what is being described in terms of looking at a screen and finding things can be done with screen review or object review.  Sometimes, one of those modes finds something another doesn't find.  And the thing about the Golden cursor, as I understand it, is that you can set pixel points to move immediately to something.  But people who don't properly learn to use object navigation and screen review are doing themselves a disservice if they are advanced users and want to do things that can't be done with standard keyboard navigation.

>     If you find something using object review or screen review and want to move the simulated mouse to it, using the desktop layout, the command to move the mouse is numpad insert numpad slash.  Hold numpad insert and, while doing so, press numpad slash.  I don't use the laptop layout and don't know the command.  In most cases, the mouse will now be at the position of the object.  You should now be able to use the Golden cursor to set a return point.

>     I haven't used the Golden cursor because I don't use programs where doing so is an advantage.  But as I understand the description given of how to use it, a good deal of the excitement is the result of not using object navigation and screen review to advantage.

>     Gene

>     ----- Original Message -----

>     From: Antony Stone

>     Sent: Thursday, February 02, 2017 4:41 AM

>     To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

>     Subject: Re: [nvda] controlling the mouse?

>     If NVDA could know where all the interesting or useful objects were, I think

>     we'd have a far better way of interacting with them instead of having to move

>     the mouse pointer around.

>     The problem (or at least one of them) is that you often don't know where an

>     object is or what it can do until you put the mouse pointer on top of it.

>     Antony.

>     On Thursday 02 February 2017 at 11:26:41, john s wrote:

>     > I would find this mouse movement more exciting if

>     > the pointer would move from object to object rather than by number of

>     > pixels.

>     --

>     All generalisations are inaccurate.

>                                                        Please reply to the list;

>                                                              please *don't* CC me.

> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

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