With the increased complexity of ribbons and the odd behavior that has been described, you are still missing the point. They are a lot harder to figure out and condemning people for having difficulties won't solve the problem.  Better support for such newer items is needed within screen readers and perhaps within the tutorials presented by the software manufacturers for screen readers--especially the ones that charge an arm and a leg for such software.

We could go round and round for weeks concerning this issue, so this is the last thing I will say on the issue.

It doesn't prove that.  You are complaining about split buttons which aren't confined to ribbons.  it is not fair to blame ribbons for split buttons just as it isn't fair for someone who doesn't understand the concept of the default button in dialogs to complain that some buttons don't work properly when enter is used on them.  If you use enter on all buttons, you will get unexpected results at times because of the concept and implementation of default buttons. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Ron Canazzi

Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 7:39 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

This again proves that in complex menu and listing structures, the ribbons are a bear.

On 2/18/2017 8:20 PM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

Gene,

Down arrow doesn't work in this case, because you can use the arrow keys to navigate around the ribbon.  It's not recommended because the ribbon changes between being anywhere from 1 to three items high with no indication and using the arrows it is easy to miss items.  That is why tab is generally recommended to move between items as it will seamlessly move between all the items, regardless of their layout.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 11:30 AM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

What happens if you just use down arrow?  If right arrow doesn't work on a split button, you should always try down arrow.  If you try down arrow first for some reason and it doesn't work. try right arrow.  I haven't seen alt down arrow given as a command to be used with any split buttons.  Is alt down arrow an expected command for certain ones? 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Quentin Christensen

Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:12 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Ron,

Sorry, I wasn't clear in my message - you can't press right arrow on split buttons in the Excel ribbon - the example I gave of the start menu worked differently but what I was thinking when I said it, was that it might be a relatable example.

To access the split button in Excel, press alt+h for the home ribbon, then control+right arrow to get to the section as you did, then alt+down arrow, as yu can to open a drop down list.

Kind regards

Quentin.

On Sun, Feb 19, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Ron Canazzi <aa2vm@...> wrote:

Hi Quentin,

I tried navigating to the insert split button as follows:

alt + H, control + right arrow until I hear insert split button, then right arrow, nothing happens, for laughs and giggles left arrow, nothing happens, enter, space bar, attempted routing of cursors and simulated mouse click with left or right click and nothing.  This is with Office 2016/Excel.

On 2/18/2017 6:14 AM, Quentin Christensen wrote:

Actually,

Thinking on it a bit further, and looking back at the ribbon in Word and Excel, the key word is "split button".  A split button, visually, is a button where you activate the main part of it to do the most common action.  An arrow coming off the right side opens a menu of other related options.  The most common example of a split button is the start menu item for a program such as Word in Windows 7.  When you arrow to Word in the start menu in Windows 7, you can either press ENTER to go into a blank document (or the backstage) in Word.  Alternatively, you can press the right arrow to open a "jump list" of recent documents you have used in Word.

Insert, Delete and Format cells in Excel are setup the same way.  When you press ENTER on the insert button, for me it inserts a cell and pushes the rest down.  If I have multiple cells selected, it inserts multiple cells, pushing either right or down, depending on what was selected.

Merge and Centre, Font Colour, Accounting number format, and sum all do the same thing on the home ribbon in Excel,  They all have an action they perform if you activate them, and a list of related actions you can get to if you alt+down arrow on them.  It might not be obvious, but there you go.

Regards

Quentin.

On Sat, Feb 18, 2017 at 9:46 PM, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:

However playing devils advocate a little here, can one be sure that the original menu version of this worked or did it only work via mouse selection or direct shortcut?
This sounds to me like an issue with the software in that the keyboard action of getting the dialogue or whatever to focus enough to get at the options simply won't work in that case. As such it needs to be sorted by Microsoft if it has Jaws and nvda giving similar results.
Its not that the function is not there, it is, but in an illogical place and seemingly not  selectable from the ribbon route, only by mouse or keyboard shortcuts.
Brian

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Ron Canazzi" <aa2vm@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2017 6:37 AM
Subject: [nvda] Significant Area Of Excel Where Ribbons simply Make No Sense and Don't Work

Hi Group,


I have started a new thread on this ribbon business since some have complained that the other thread had drifted away from the original intent.


Here's one big issue with ribbons and Excel.

If one wants to insert a structural element of a work book such as a row, column area or sheet, one cannot do this by navigating the ribbons.  The short cut which I will describe does work, but this was given to me by someone who figured it out with sighted help.


First of all, try looking for the items under the insert portion of the ribbon.  They simply aren't there.  Then via experimentation and observation, you find a separate insert item under the home portion of the ribbon under general.  There's a problem, if you simply navigate to the insert item, and press either enter or space bar, nothing happens. somehow if you use the shortcut alt + h, I, you do get a list of items. You can then pick the desired item and press enter and follow the prompts or whatever.  If you don't know the designated shortcut sequence, you simply can't find this item and get it to work with screen readers: JAWS or NVDA.


I know I have seen this in other Microsoft programs such as Access and Power Point as well.


I'm sorry folks, using ribbons does not give full access to screen reader users in many programs as we used to have under the standard drop down or pull down menus.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--

Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306 

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--

Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306 

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

--

Quentin Christensen
Training Material Developer

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306 

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"

--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"