Re: Questions and suggestions


Gene
 

For years, the only way blind people could get to the system tray was with the screen-reader dialog.  It became so well entrenched and so expected a way to reach it that it should be included in screen-readers.  Whether it is duplicative or not, at times in this and other contexts, technology related or not, a practice is so well entrenched that it may be desirable to continue it whether it is duplicative or not. 
 
Sighted people have constant and unnecessary instructions on how to do things.  How many obvious buttons on machines, for example, have something completely unnecessary written as a prompt such as push.  What else are you going to do with a button on a machine? Why is there so much opposition to, not as a general practice, but in this one instance, making things a gbit easier for a lot of NVDA users while doing no harm? 
 
And at very rare times, I have found it necessary to have the dialog available.  As I said yesterday, I've seen very rare instances where you can't work with an icon except in the screen-reader provided system tray dialog.
 
Furthermore, to work with the Windows implementation, you need to know commands most blind computer users don't know.  Enter equals left double click in the system tray.  Space bar equals left single click.  The context menu key equals right click.  Since even a lot of experienced computer users don't know such commands implementing a system tray dialog will eliminate frustration and problems that will occur without knowing them.  And, unless this has been changed, these commands are not covered in the NVDA users' guide.  And how many people read manuals with any thoroughness?  And finally, when using the system tray directly, you don't up and down arrow through icons.  You right or left arrow.  The commands I've given and the difference in movement commands can easily be explained.  But most users are not on lists such as this, probably don't read the user Guide with the kind of thoroughness that would allow them to discover such commands and, as I said, unless this has changed, these things aren't discussed in the users Guide.  The Windows command is given at some point, but I don't think any of what I have discussed other than that is provided. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, February 24, 2017 9:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Questions and suggestions

This argument is silly.

The windows-b key gives you access, what's the issue?  Windows-b works regardless of screen reader, windows version, or desktop/laptop keyboard layout.  I see no problem here, and arguing that other screen readers provide another keystroke for the same function is a spurious argument.  Other windows screen readers aren't open source either, but I don't see anyone pushing to have this fixed.  Other windows screen readers also tend to be larger, and take up more system resources (on average) but I don't see anyone complaining about this either.  Just because other screen readers have something doesn't automatically make it something NVDA *must* have.  Windows provides the keystroke windows-b for a reason, and there's no reason to duplicate the effort by building access to the same function just because you can.

Good lord, if folks wanted every single windows function duplicated, just imagine how much bloat screen readers would have.  Nothing wrong with leaving windows keystrokes alone, and just pointing them out when someone asks.  No need to needlessly duplicate existing functionality.  Should NVDA provide another keystroke to switch between programs when alt-tab does the job just fine?

Give it a rest already.



On 2/24/2017 5:34 PM, Kwork wrote:
Agreed here completely. This should be a core NVDA function, and not only available by installing an add-on. But this has been hashed out before, with NVDA developers ignoring the desires of some of us users.
Travis
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 10:29 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Questions and suggestions

That isn't the reason and that argument is irrelevant.  The system tray wasn't accessible years ago through Windows.  There needed to be a screen-reader dialog to provide access.  That's how the whole separate access got started and System Access uses the same command.  Window-eyes uses a different command but it too provides a system tray dialog. 
 
There are times, like it or not, when the dialog works better than using the Windows access method and it should be provided as a part of screen-readers. 
 
Sometimes, I get access to something using the Windows method when the dialog doesn't work properly and at other times, I have found the only way I've gotten access to an item is by using the dialog.  These instances where one or the other method doesn't work are rare but the argument that the screen-reader dialog method is nothing but duplication is not correct. 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2017 10:21 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Questions and suggestions

Because NVDA is not jaws, and there's no reason to make it mirror jaws keystrokes.  The windows-b keystroke will work no matter what you use for a screen reader, since it's a windows command.  That's why NVDA uses it.  There is no dedicated NVDA keystroke for this function.



On 2/23/2017 8:36 PM, Arlene wrote:

Hi, I don’t know if I can say here! When you go to your system trey. Why not make future builds of NVDA be insert F 11? Instead of windows B. 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Damien Sykes-Lindley
Sent: February-23-17 9:06 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Questions and suggestions

 

Hi Gene,

Hotkeys are indeed excellent. One of the first thing I look for in a program is hotkeys. In fact, some have so many that it’s hard to memorise all of them. But at least they’re there!

The only problem I have with Windows shortcuts being linked to them is that, because they are global throughout the whole system, it can unfortunately cause conflicts with other running applications that utilise those shortcuts. For instance, I could assign a ctrl+alt+q shortcut to launch QWS (a MIDI sequencer), and another application may use ctrl+alt+q to mean quit. I have known ctrl+alt+o for options, ctrl+alt+x for exit, ctrl+alt+n/p for next/previous, all of which can be assigned to a Windows hotkey, and then it’s touch and go as to which item activates. Otherwise, I’m definitely all for hotkeys!

As an aside, I must admit I do find it odd, and mildly frustrating that there are four modifier keys that can be used to register hotkeys and yet it is still possible to run out of logical keys! This is even more so for global shortcut-linked ones, since I think you can only have ctrl+alt and ctrl+shift combos. Possibly if you’re extremely dextrous you might be able to have ctrl+shift+alt, I haven’t dared to try that one. Lol.

First letter navigation. Now you mention it I am aware of it. I use it all the time to move quickly to files in Explorer. But for some reason it didn’t cross my mind for the desktop (even though I know that is also controlled by explorer). I guess because my explorer is in detail view, and the desktop shows as a sort of grid layout I treated them as two separate systems. Strange how brains work!

Cheers.
Damien.





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