Re: windows 10 app esencials announsing what updates you have


Pauline Smith
 

Good Evening,


I use NVDA with no additional add-ons.  I have never installed any add-ons and am not sure where or how to do so.  Most of the people I know or teach who use this screen reader do not use add-ons.


Pauline

  


On 4/12/2017 9:22 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi Brian and all,

Hmmm, if I heard you right, you believe that community add-ons is the only reason why people embrace NVDA. I’d like to respectfully disagree. But first, a few facts:

  • NVDA is a decade-old product. It began as a response to high cost of assistive technology, with developers championing equal access to technology.
  • NVDA is not the only screen reader with add-ons or extensions: JAWS had it for years, and so did Window-Eyes and others. What other screen reader users call “scripts”, that’s what NVDA community calls “add-ons”. We may as well call NVDA add-ons “scripts”, but add-ons are much more powerful than app-specific scripts.

Thus, my answer to the question posed: no. NVDA is more than code or add-ons. Although people may say that community add-ons is the only reason why people embrace NVDA (perhaps due to numerous powerful add-ons out there), the ultimate goal of NonVisual Desktop Access is opening opportunities for many. At the end of NVDACon 2016, I (the former chair of NVDA Users and Developers Conference and the person who started this event in 2014) have labeled NVDA as a global movement, seeing that NVDA is opening doors to employment, education and what not. Community add-ons are just a part of the overall picture; the big picture is seeing people unlock their full potential through this open-source, free, and community-driven screen reader.

Regarding add-ons: you may have noticed me using the phrase “powerful add-ons”. Yes, there are add-ons out there that brings features from other screen readers and makes improvements upon them, such as Golden Cursor, Place Markers and what not. Some of you may say that my add-ons such as Windows 10 App Essentials, StationPlaylist Studio, ObjPad and what not are themselves powerful add-ons (I consider StationPlaylist Studio to be the most powerful add-on I’m working on at the moment, closely followed by windows 10 App Essentials), but there are more powerful add-ons out there than these, some of which that are yet to be written. I call some of these powerful not only because of technical effort involved (see Windows 10 app Essentials, for instance), but also because they have huge impact on lives of many, not only for those using them, but others who’ll come to meet users of add-ons, and in extension, NVDA. This is the reason why one of the questions I asked dealt with experiences of others – I personally will not proceed with feature suggestions unless people in addition to the person who suggested it benefits from them.

Regarding feature suggestions: personally, when I come across a feature suggestion for NVDA itself, I have a tendency to ask people for justifications, and NV Access staff and other developers do ask folks to try to reproduce with other screen readers (I am josephsl on GitHub). If a suggestion does have merit and has potential to benefit many, then one or more developers will research further (such is the case with my work on add-on updates). Every year, the community sees at least one feature suggestion that (literally or metaphorically) says, “I want to see something from another screen reader come to NVDA”. The most recent example is virtual ribbons, which NV Access has turned down as there are ways people can use ribbons to its potential without resorting to emulating menu systems (ask Quentin for details). There are times when a feature suggestion cannot be implemented due to reasons beyond developers’ control, such as a recent request to make NVDA a universal app (this cannot be done due to technical reasons). There were calls by some in the community to NV Access asking them to integrate features from Windows 10 App Essentials add-on into NVDA itself, which is happening bit by bit (I’ll need to reserve a thread on how third-party code makes their way to NVDA, and one route is features from add-ons coming onboard). There are other interesting things to talk about (which will take at least an hour to talk about) regarding feature suggestions the community receives, but for the most part, you can expect to see someone responding to your requests, either asking you to tell us (developers) how to reproduce the issue, attach a log output, try with other screen readers in hopes of reproducing it and what not. I’ll write a more detailed message about NVDA and add-on feature suggestions, including what and what not to do, what to do when disagreements arise, categorizing issues and so on.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 5:40 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] windows 10 app esencials announsing what updates you have

 

    Yes I do believe so as far as I know nvda is the only screen reader that does have add ons so it's a very big factor and it's free.  I know that there are people all arround the world who use nvda so there input hould be concitered as well. 

Brian Sackrider

 

On 4/12/2017 8:37 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi Brian,

May I ask you this: is community add-ons the only reason why people embrace NVDA? I’d like to hear your answer first before giving mine, because I think this is a great opportunity for us to talk about this.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 5:29 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] windows 10 app esencials announsing what updates you have

 

        Thats not very long for the whole nvda community to respond to thats only 2 days which means that you are not giving it a chance this is what happened with my ie request add on you just keep on proving that you don't really care both add ons should be done even if users don't say that want them because if they had them they might see how much better their experience is with nvda theese 2 add ons would greatly benifit new users of nvda if you build it they will come meaning that users will use theese add ons and greatly appreciate them and the great work that you are doing.

Brian Sackrider

 

On 4/12/2017 8:17 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi Brian,

If I don’t hear from anyone that seconds this request by this Friday, then I’ll consider this request closed for the time being.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 5:14 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] windows 10 app esencials announsing what updates you have

 

    I don't have a windows 7 pc I don't use narator as for the time take what time that you need and as for how many users would want this add on thats ask all users and find out.

Brian Sackrider

 

On 4/12/2017 8:10 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi,

Please answer the following questions, as it’ll help me with a potential research:

  1. Do you have a Windows 7 or 8.1 computer you can test to see if NVDA announces update titles as they are being downloaded?
  2. If you use Narrator in Windows 10, do you hear Narrator announce update titles as they are being downloaded?
  3. On the scale from 1 to 10, how likely do you think others will use this suggestion?
  4. How long do you think I can spend to implement this feature, complete with testing it on Windows 10 versions 1511, 1607, 1703 and Insider builds?

Not that I’ll turn this request down today – I want you to ask deep questions as you help me with my research. Nor I’m going to avoid this request today - I want you to give me justifications so I can allocate time for it. Not that NVDA developers will ignore this request – they will work on it if justifications are there (to digress a bit, there was a feature suggestion to implement virtual ribbons but was turned down as there was no compelling justifications and it is a matter of people learning how to use it effectively).

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 4:57 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] windows 10 app esencials announsing what updates you have

 

    The thing that you need to research is how do you get nvda to read the updates as they come in your are avoiding the issue.

Brian Sackrider

 

On 4/12/2017 7:52 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi Brian, Brian and others,

To Brian V: what Brian S is looking for is a way for NVDA to announce names of updates as they are being downloaded.

To Brian S: so you are saying that, in Windows 7, NVDA somehow announces names of updates as it is being downloaded? My experience does not confirm this, as in when I run my Windows 7 VM for testing, I don’t hear NVDA announce names of updates as they are being downloaded. Nor does Narrator announce names of updates when they are being downloaded in Windows 10. If you do have justifications, let me know so I can consider them, and I will also weigh in user experience consistency when deciding if it is something I need to research this summer.

Cheers,

Joseph (WinTenApps add-on author)

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of brian
Sent: Wednesday, April 12, 2017 4:44 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] windows 10 app esencials announsing what updates you have

 

    Yes I do want updates to be announced as they come in asI get updates when Icheck for them and I wait until I know that they have been successfully installed or not and there is no reason that this can't be done but you just don't care.  This is the second request that I have made and I got the same response.  The first request was for an add on for ie to read the percentages when downloading and now this request for an add on to announce every update as it comes in.  The clear reality here is if the developers of nvda don't want somthing in nvda it's just not going to happen.   It's not about it's about the en users of your product nvda.  If you truly did care about the users of nvda then you would make theese 2 add ons that I have requested.  There is no such as it can't be done that only says that you just don't want to do it.  The developers and the add on community does not really care at all about the requests of the users of nvda because the profe is in the poodding.

Brian Sackrider

 

On 4/12/2017 6:21 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Brian,

          I can see.  I cannot see what updates I will get until the list has populated, usually one by one.  Yes, I can see what's coming in before the install begins, but what does that matter because you can't stop it.

          If you want to know what's being installed then you need to constantly go and trigger a Check for Updates and wait for the first to begin either downloading or installing (depending on the sizes involved) and review the list.

          It's essentially no different than what the sighted get except that you need to wait for the auditory cue that the updates have begun downloading or installing.

          Things have changed in Windows 10 and the vast majority of users, including myself, have no idea of what's being installed until after the fact because Windows Update has changed significantly and by design keeps the process as "set it and forget it" as possible.

           I don't know what you think that the add-on should do unless you want it to lock up your processing by watching and waiting for each update name to be populated in the list, which is not always quick.

           If you want to know what's coming in you can wait and listen using NVDA, rather than look, as the sighted world has to do but with sight.  No screen reader is telepathic about how a dynamic list might populate until it's done populating.
--
Brian

     The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

            ~ Dorothy Nevill

 

 

 

 

 

 


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