Re: Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition


Tony Ballou
 

Hi Joseph,


Thanks, I've got all of  those tools in my arsenal and have been using them to teach my clients who are new as well as myself and they have helped me tremendously. In fact, your audio tutorial was the first piece of info that really helped me to grasp some of the NVDA concepts in full, and I can't thank  you enough my friend for that. 2 months ago, I got both books, and I discovered the accessibility central website last month.


I don't think that I can due to time constraints and my other projects that I have going on could ever write a full tutorial covering a complete transition from window eyes to NVDA. But, if I can produce a good piece of documentation that's easy to follow, makes sense, sets the readers mind at ease about making the jump, and isn't a bear to follow, then I will be able to say that I've done something right.


Tony      


On 5/25/2017 12:41 AM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi Tony,

I am the author/producer of Welcome to NVDA tutorial series Gene mentioned. I’d like to seriously recommend that you listen to the entire series (2015 edition), as it gives you a more in-depth knowledge of NVDA and in hopes that you can use concepts I talk about to make the transition document even better.

The tutorial set can be found at:

http://www.josephsl.net/tutorials/

 

Also, I’d like to advise you to purchase and read Basic Training Module for NVDA produced by NV Access, as it teaches you Windows and app basics with NVDA.

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tony Ballou
Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 9:38 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

 

Howdy Gene,

 

Thanks much bro, I appreciate you checking in.

 

When I first started thinking of this idea, it went back to a chart that I had read of keyboard equivalents between jaws and window eyes some years ago.  At that time I was a full blown window eyes user, and had to learn jaws for a job.  I used that chart to make the transition easier for myself and the rest I picked up through tutorials. So I fully understand what you're saying and I think we can make this work. Lots of what you mention about setting up NVDA, working with synthesizers etc.  is on the accessibilitycentral.net website, so we really don't need to re-invent the wheel there. However, there are a few things in browse mode in window eyes that behave slightly different than NVDA. Here are a few samples that even had me saying what?

 

 

The List option in NVDA is l and the list item option is I.  That makes perfect sense. 

 

 

In window eyes, though the list item is I, the list command is S.

 

With Landmarks, in NVDA it's d and shift-d conversely in window eyes, it's semicolon and shift-semicolon which completely divert from any single letter navigation choices I've seen. I'm going to take your suggestion and try and scale things down a bit. But no more tonight, It's late here in Philadelphia, and I've gotta recharge the batteries. Thanks much man!

 

 

 

On 5/24/2017 11:43 PM, Gene wrote:

I'm not sure what you are creating.  You speak of a chart and that it is eight pages long.  Evidently, you will send it to all who request it.  I'll probably write off list and do so.  But I really don't think anything that long is needed nor desirable to provide a transition.  In my opinion, the following should be discussed not in a chart, but in a document:

How to set speech parameters including synthesizer, reading speed and punctuation, how to open the menu.  How to unload NVDA and how to run it.  A brief discussion of the talking installer.  Not much, but that you will be asked if you want to create a portable version or install the screen-reader.

Aside from that, the following commands should be briefly stated:

Read current line.  Read previous line, read next line.

Read current word, next word and previous word.  The same with characters.  the pattern may be very briefly noted.

Read title bar and that pressing the command twice quickly will spell the title bar.  Pressing it three times copies the title bar text to the clipboard.

Very little discussion of browse mode need be done.  the commands are very similar or perhaps just about identical.  It should be explained how to make each link appear on its own line.  It should be explained how to stop automatic switching between browse and function mode and how to switch to words to notify the user when he is in browse mode or focus mode. 

 

Screen review may be described but it might be better to refer the user to something like the chapter in the tutorial Joseph Lee did on the subject.  It is still available on line.  Object review as well can be referred to a chapter in the tutorial. 

A brief discussion of the NVDA users' list should be given and the syntax to join.

 

I wouldn't do anything other than what I've mentioned unless I happen to think of something that I've forgotten in this disscussion but even if I did, I would do very little more.  This document is to provide a transition, not to teach Windows nor NVDA in detail.  It's purpose is to allow Window-eyes users to be able to use NVDA and refer them to resources for teaching such things as object navigation.  If it is too long and detailed, it may discourage some people from making the transition.  The purpose is to allow basic NVDA use in as short a time and with as little to learn as possible. 

 

I should add one more thing that should be mentioned.  It should be pointed out that input help is available and that you use it in the same way as in Window-eyes.  I believe the command is the same but whether it is or not, the user should be told the following:

To go into input help, use insert 1 meaning 1 on the main keyboard.  Either insert may be used.  An example of use may be given.  When in browse mode, for example, every browse mode letter such as h for heading, b for button, etc. will name the command when pressed.  the user may, if he/she wishes, push every letter of the alphabet to see what the quick navigation commands are.  they are almost identical to Windo-eyes but this will allow the user to be aware of any differences in an engaged and interactive, not a passive way. 

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 8:59 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

 

Hi

 

Food for thought. I do have a full list of windows commands i would have to check for windows 7, 8 and 10 that can be inserted into a page if its a webpage.

 

If you want them i can drop box them to you.

 

I know what you mean by 8 pages and counting the object navigation takes a little getting used to and i do not think there is some thing like that in other screen readers.

I thought some one said the idea was burrowed from voice over?

 

Text review is pretty good as it lets you read stuff that you can not with the system focus, but people have to get there head around that you can review a whole page without say moving the carrot cursor but you can not edit with it.

 

Gene nz

 

 

On 25/05/2017 1:35 PM, Tony Ballou wrote:

howdy Mate,

 

I've started working on the chart and would like your input and feedback on it so far. Because of it's length, 8 pages and probably counting, it is far too long to post here. I'm basically concentrating on the things I'm totally familiar with in both screen readers and leaving the review and object navigation modes for another time.  I for now just want to give anyone who is coming from window eyes to NVDA enough ammunition to get going and begin to feel comfortable with using the program. 

 

In my own personal experience, I learned NVDA by knowing all of the basic windows commands, and studying the help documentation that came with it. And as a new weapon of choice, I've added the accessibilitycentral.net website to my arsenal of darn near all things NVDA.

 

Contact me off list at cyberpro224@... if you want to give this a go.

 

Tony

 

 

 

On 5/24/2017 1:49 PM, Gene wrote:

I don't think describing how to use object navigation is a good idea in this context.  Giving resources for those interested, such as the tutorial chapter done by Joseph Lee would probably be a much better idea in terms of use of those creating such materials' time.  Also, the user in most cases, doesn't have to know about object navigation when first making the transition.  Better not to overload the user with a difficult concept to teach such as this at the outset. 

 

Using screen review mode can easily be explained in a work such as you are creating and it must be emphasized that after using screen review, the user must return to object navigation mode because if this isn't done, NVDA won't work properly in various contexts.  So just explaining how to enter screen review, numpad insert numpad 7 executed until you hear that there are no more review modes, then give the review commands to read current line, move to and read next line, etc. could be given.  How to move the mouse and click it could also be given. 

 

then how to return to object navigation, numpad insert 1 repeated until there are no more review modes would be done when finished.

 

It is better not to give Window-eyes and NVDA equivalent commands in the context of screen-review.  There are many equivalent commands but going into screen-review and returning to object navigation has no equivalent in Window-eyes.  this might be pointed out.  As for movement commands, the Window-eyes user will recognize equivalents such as read current line without the tutorial pointing out the actual Window-eyes command.

 

The listener or reader will know what is being discussed when the NVDA commands are given.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, May 24, 2017 11:32 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

 

Howdy Mate,

 

That's what I was thinking also. If there are any other window eyes users out there whether they be former like myself or current who would like to help me with this endeavor, come on in, because there's loads I don't know. I'll try to have some basic ground work for the sheet up for all of you to look at by tomorrow.   


Tony

On 5/23/2017 5:09 PM, Gene wrote:

You can't compare the Window-eyes mouse pointer to object navigation.  You can give commands in NVDA for read current line, previous line, next line, and similar review commands

 

But you have to learn object navigation on its own. 

 

Screen review should be easy to teach since it is similar.  There are different commands but it's similar in movement and concept.

 

Commands such as read to end can be given.  As for browse mode, commands are either similar or identical in Window-eyes or NVDA.  I haven't used Window-eyes to any extent for years but just listing NVDA commands such as move by heading, h, skip blocks of links, n, move to next button, b, etc. should be sufficient. It should be explained how to stop automatic going into browse mode and how to change audio indications to words. 

 

As I more or less said earlier,  most of what most users do is use program commands, Windows commands, and quick navigation commands. 

 

In my opinion, that is the first important point to be made.

Maybe I'll try writing something.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Tuesday, May 23, 2017 3:42 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

 

Hi,

 

Give me a couple of days, Let me see what I can come up with


Tony

On 5/23/2017 2:38 PM, Brandon Cross wrote:

Yeah, agreed, I tried window eyes briefly, not enough to get a grasp on it, but if anyone did know both intimately, it would be a worthwhile venture to make a little cheat sheet, or more if needed. An article of sourts maybe.

 

On Wed, May 17, 2017 at 7:40 PM, David Moore <jesusloves1966@...> wrote:

Amen!

I will be here to help anyone coming from Window-Eyes to switch to NVDA for their screen reader. I hope this does become a great way to promote NVDA and get many more people acquainted with it.

David Moore

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

From: Andre Fisher
Sent: Wednesday, May 17, 2017 2:36 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] Window-Eyes Tutorials and Transition

 

Hi everyone.

 

Although I was never a Window-Eyes user, strictly NVDA, I feel that

providing material, similarly to how VFO provided some nice

transitional material to help transition to JAWS is a very good idea

for NVDA. This will be especially beneficial to those persons who are

using the Free for Office Edition. As there is a page on the wiki and

NVDACon, I hope this suggestion can come to reality, as there is a

good opportunity to extend NVDA's reach and popularity, as well as

reporting features and bugs.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

--
Check out my website for nvda tutorials and other blindness related material at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net. Regardless of where you are in New Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the NVDA screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations or location is near to you please visit http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries | Aotearoa People's Network Kaharoa -

 


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