Re: Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...


Robin Frost
 

Hi,
Perhaps I’m fool hearty to even try but in the interest of clarity I’ll attempt to address Gene’s assessment of my post as that’s what I believe is being referenced below.
Firstly I am by no means a fan girl type of person of any particular operating system, screen reader or device. I’ll use that which does any task the best at any given time. That is why I made reference to the fact that others often can and do pick devices operating systems and all manner of things based on any number of reasons I just didn’t want to think that people might do so out of fear based upon things that might not afflict them. I also indicated that my experience was different that others as I did not upgrade but rather was forced by circumstances to purchase a new machine thus my Windows 10 install was a clean one from a manufacturer.
I acknowledge that Windows is by no means perfect but I don’t expect it to be so as nothing is. I do however, agree that users just want a machine that works and does that which they need it to do daily; and I also agree that in an optimal world an operating system manufacturer should make sure that it works with as many screen readers and other variables as possible and I agree that saying it works well with Narrator doesn’t qualify as such.
However, it is also my understanding that to at least some degree screen reader manufacturers often do dialog with Microsoft behind the scenes and participate in running insider builds in an effort to address accessibility issues before they role out. if I am incorrect on this point I’m sure someone will further enlighten us all.
 
And for the record I have experienced Microsoft updates causing issues with drivers and peripherals from time to time but when I did it was nothing that couldn’t be solved by either a call to Microsoft’s disability help desk or my pc’s own manufacturer as recently as the last 2 weeks.
 
Again in summation I would never presume to make any sort of grand pronouncement on that which anyone would or should do I was merely trying to balance that which had been stated with another view. And with that I’ll now post this with the fragile fleeting hope that this might clarify that which I had tried to say and perhaps did so unsuccessfully.
Robin
 
 

From: Gene
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:07 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...
 
I evidently respondedd to a message that didn't include the comments I was responding to.  As far as I know, it was in this thread that someone said that their Windows 10 has worked well and that they object to the characterizations of some users that it doesn't in general.  I'm not completely paraphrasing the message correctly, I evidently no longer have it but that gives readers following the thread enough information to know what message I was commenting on.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 2:30 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...
 
This message is long; you may want to read it now or when you have more time, if you are busy now.
 
You have stated how you found Windows on one machine.  It isn't a fact in general.  it is a fact regarding your personal experience.  It is my impression that a lot of people have found Windows 10 to be reliable.  But, in the case of blind users, many continually have problems with Microsoft making changes to universal apps that degrades accessibility in those apps.  Do you use universal apps such as the mail app or do you use Windows 10 to run traditional programs? 
 
Just yesterday, on the NVDA users list, there was discussion of how the e-mail app had serious problems after Microsoft updated it in terms of accessibility.  the problems could be corrected by using the latest version of the add on for NVDA that is released by NVDA, largely to deal with the unending problems Microsoft causes by not testing its apps properly for accessibility.  I believe it was on this list yesterday or the day before that I asked about Microsoft testing its universal apps.  An NVDA developer said that Microsoft tests them using Narrator.  That's not anything remotely resembling proper testing. 
 
My point is that your experience is very conditional.  If you had driver problems and forced driver updates kept undoing the changes you made to cause your system to work properly, you wouldn't have as good an experience as you report.  If you used universal apps, your experience would be a cat and mouse game depending on how well and how quickly your screen-reader delt with the changes Microsoft made to these apps after releasing them with completely inadequate testing.  And there is a basic principle that a machine owner has the right to control what is done to his/her machine.  Microsoft, in not allowing updates to be controled as in previous versions of Windows is, in effect, asserting the right to control your, not their, machine.  They license Windows to you, they don't license your machine to you.
 
Microsoft gave Windows 10 away for free to meet their financial goals to monitize Windows, not the users best interests.  I am very glad that I didn't fall for Microsoft's snake oil.  My Windows 7 machine works well and I can do everything I want to with it.  I control my machine, not Microsoft.  I will not upgrade my well working, reliable Windows 7 machine to Windows 10.  When I buy a new computer, it will have Windows 10 on it.  I won't upgrade to Windows 10 just because Microsoft does everything it can to entice me to do so for their advantage, not mine. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Monday, June 19, 2017 9:55 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a
reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

I echo the same sentiment as Brian.  The Win10 anniversary already caused me
to buy another laptop I did not need as I was leaving on an overseas trip
and my laptop was totally messed up after the update.  I am honestly about
to switch to a Mac as the Win environment is not reliable.
Blessings
Pascal

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Austin
Pinto
Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:02 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a
reason why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...

oh! when you said explode i thought it would sound much worced but.
its a nice directive

On 6/19/17, Brian's Mail list account <bglists@...> wrote:
> Joseph, though I do understand where you are coming from and the
> frustration
>
> you feel, I do honestly have sympathy with the end user who just wants
> a reliable system.
> Microsoft have to shoulder a good deal of the blame for what their
> changes cause. I'm not suggesting in any way that they are
> deliberately  screwing things up here, just that they  really do not
> test stuff enough. For people
>
> who do not use special builds of windows, ie insiders, or nvda. I do
> not think it unreasonable to expect continuity and after a while
> people do get fed up with having the rug pulled from under them on a
> regular basis by software makers, be that Microsoft or anyone else.
>  So yes, in a development environment you would be justified in being
> annoyed, but when people are trying to run their lives day to day and
> keep encountering stones in the road and potholes not of their own
> making  it is,
>
> I think understandable if people get fed up and take the easy option.
>  I have I know said much of this before, but like most of us, I have
> had to
>
> try to help people in real life away from this place and been almost
> embarrassed when you eventually track down the issue to the actual
> changes in the software and nothing to do with the end user, except
> that he or she happens to be blind.
>
> I'll shut up now and  be quiet, bite my lip etc for a while. I nearly
> bought
>
> a new laptop last week but after reading about all the win 10 issues
> decided
>
> not to bother.
>  Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal email to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Monday, June 19, 2017 4:22 AM
> Subject: [nvda] Important directive for Windows 10 users: there is a
> reason
>
> why Windows 10 App Essentials add-on is out there...
>
>
>> Dear NVDA community,
>>
>>
>>
>> Disclaimer: for new community members, I'm normally not like this,
>> but I do sometimes right posts I believe folks should hear, as it
>> impacts community experience and what not. So my sincere apologies
>> for letting you witness my explosive side. Please bear with me for a
>> second, as it is important that
>>
>> I
>> talk about the following regarding respecting engineers and announce
>> a directive for Windows 10 users:
>>
>>
>>
>> In the blindness community (at least for members of various mailing
>> lists that I'm a part of or lead), I became synonymous with someone
>> who is willing to show patience until the end, especially when
>> resolving tech support problems. But there is a hidden side to that:
>> for certain things, I become
>>
>> a
>> volcano, and those who've witnessed my lava flow knows what I mean.
>> Unfortunately, I believe it is time that I explode yet again (my
>> apologies to our dear leaders for doing something like this):
>>
>>
>>
>> Answering questions: for many situations, when resolving issues, when
>> I and other engineers ask you questions in hopes of getting to the
>> meat of the burger. Sometimes we may ask you to tell us steps to
>> reproduce the given problem, what a screen reader says, and what not.
>> When developers ask you questions, please do your best to answer them
>> if possible.
>>
>>
>>
>> For Windows 10 users: there is an important reason why I wrote
>> Windows 10 App Essentials: to prevent issues like the one Rosemarie
>> and others have experienced with Mail app. Hence the following directive:
>>
>>
>>
>> Until now, it was optional for you to use Windows 10 app Essentials
>> add-on if you are using Windows 10. I'll make this an important
>> requirement starting from fall 2017. That is, starting from September
>> 2017, when you report issues like the one Rosemarie has experienced,
>> I'll no longer ask you to install latest WinTenApps add-on: I'll
>> assume that you have. For Windows Insiders, this is a critical (and
>> mandatory) requirement.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm not announcing this directive just because I feel like doing it,
>> nor to increase popularity of my brainchild: Windows 10 App
>> Essentials add-on exists for important reasons:
>>
>>
>>
>> * Workarounds for issues encountered by NVDA users when using Windows
>> 10, including various UI Automation issues.
>> * Respond to changes in accessibility of various apps such as
>> removing workarounds put in place in past versions.
>> * Respond to app executable name changes (Microsoft has changed names
>> of at least three universal app executables).
>> * Provide essential features for Windows 10 users, including
>> suggestions announcement, emoji panel support (Fall Creators Update),
>> Edge notification announcements and others.
>> * To prove to Microsoft and third-party universal app developers that
>> accessibility should be a core design criteria for apps, including
>> letting screen reader users use apps to their full potential.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thank you.
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Joseph
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>


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