Re: Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes
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Gene
I'll add that I have found, while preparing my
messages in this thread, one instance where a misleading, though in a way
literally accurate message is given.
I copied a web page address to the clipboard from
the address bar. I then looked at the web page. I had forgotten that
I had copied the address and returned to the address bar. On trying to
copy the address, I received a no change message. As far as I know, the
information was copied to the clipboard again but because it was the same
information, the add on reported no change. This is the only misleading
message I've gotten and I'm confident it can be corrected. I never had
such an occurrence in JAWS. It simply announced copied to clipboard when
something was copied twice because it was copied again. It was the
identical material and it replaced the previous identical material but it was
copied.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:26 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in
various modes Here is the discussion I told you about where
including a read clipboard contents command is debated.
As I said, it was like pulling teeth to get this
feature included. I didn't read the entire discussion and I don't remember
if anything was decided at that time. but again the assertion is made,
that is incorrect based on my years of experience, that when something is copied
or pasted to or from the clipboard, that whether the events occurred or not
can't be accurately determined. I've already addressed this in my previous
message. but with this sort of rigid ideology, is it any wonder that this
false assertion wasn't tested an evaluated and that no effort has been made
to add copy and paste announcements to NVDA? And in complete
contradiction to this rigid ideology, why is there a links list in Browse
Mode? Why can this be altered to move by headings and other
structures? No sighted person has a links list or any other such
structure. So not only is this ideology rigid and in some cases
obstructive, it isn't consistently applied.
I am not in any way expressing a lack of
appreciation for all of the excellent work done by NVDA developers and the time
and effort it took. but I am very frustrated when I see a feature that
blind people have asked for for more than five years being shown no interest
because ideology dictates that it shouldn't be considered. Also, if people
feel that they should pull their punches when discussing deficiencies in NVDA
because they think that gratitude should cause them not to discuss them or do so
meekly and mildly, they are not doing anyone any service.
Gene
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in
various modes This message is rather long but that's because to
explain my position takes time and space. I have gone to the trouble
because this has been an issue of frustration to me for years.
I may be wrong when I thought that the main reason
was that the developers didn't want NvDA to give information sighted users don't
have. But the reason given, as far back as about 2009 was incorrect based
on all my years of experience with JAWS. I didn't use System Access long
enough to make such a statement but I did use it enough to say that I never saw
an inaccurate report in that screen-reader. I tested both screen-readers
by not having anything selected and using the copy and paste commands. In
those tests, neither screen-reader reported any action. the entire premise
given in about 2009 is incorrect. I shall provide a link to the brief
discussion I found. Perhaps I can find more discussion because this is
such a recurring request over the years. As I recall, Window-eyes at least
for a time, did use a key label to indicate copy and paste which would have been
inaccurate if nothing happened. It is the only popular screen-reader in
america that did this. I don't know what Dolphin (spelling) did. but
I do know that in my roughly twelve years of using JAWS, I never once got a
false report and in the times I used System Access, I didn't get a false report
either. I haven't received a false report using the NVDA add on for about
two weeks either and I was alerted that my attempt to copy a file to the
clipboard had failed, which saved me time and trouble.
I don't have to technical knowledge to assess if
the developer of the add on is correct in asserting that errors may occur when
using his add on. I can say with confidence that this feature can be
accurate, based on twelve years' experience with JAWS.
Here is the link to the discussion:
Aside from my previous objections, note the
following quote:
This is an unreasonable expectation that can't,
literally can't, be complied with. When copying text to the clipboard, the
speak clipboard feature can verify that it has been copied. But when
copying files or folders, there is no way to check except to paste them where
desired, only to find that nothing was pasted because nothing was copied or the
the wrong files and folders from a previous copy to the clipboard were pasted in
the wrong. place.
Of course, it is desirable that users become
confident and competent computer users. but many times, I have properly
issued the copy command and I know I issued it correctly. I then tried to
paste what I had copied to find that I had copied nothing. This didn't
just happen once or twice but many times over a period of time when copying text
or files and folders.
It is also much more efficient to hear a simple
copied or copied to clipboard when copying text than to have to issue the speak
clipboard contents command, listen for a moment to make sure that the material
was copied, then continue with what I was doing. And in the case of
copying large amounts of material, it isn't read. You are told how many
characters have been copied. Let's say you copy 23,374 characters to the
clipboard, then listen to the announcement of how many characters you copy by
issuing the speak clipboard contents command. You then paste it where you
want it. Then you copy other text to the clipboard, or attempt to.
Is it reasonable that the user should remember the number of characters he
copied the last time so that he can compare that number with the number he
heard announced after copying the new material? ans suppose the number is
of similar or rather similar size. Let's say I copy 23,374 the first
time. Let's say that the second time, I hear 23,265. Is it really
reasonable that someone, while writing something like a research paper, be
expected to remember such numbers whether they are similar or not?
Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Quentin Christensen
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in
various modes Thanks Gene,
I hadn't specifically looked into the way other screen readers handled
it. The notes for ClipSpeak say: "In
order to prevent announcement in inappropriate situations, Clipspeak performs
checks on the control and the clipboard in order to make an informed decision as
to whether such an announcement is necessary. Because of
this, Clipspeak's announcements
may be inaccurate."
The
point is that add-ons like these react to the keystroke, check the environment
and whether the command (copy, paste etc) is theoretically possible, and then
gives the report. It is NOT confirmation that such an action has taken
place, which is why we are reluctant to add it to core. If we could be
sure of that, I'd be all for adding it to core. The argument about sighted
users not having a visual indicator actually isn't 100% correct. There is
nothing on screen to say text was copied or pasted, however if you have text
selected and you cut it, the text disappears visually. If you paste text,
then text suddenly appears in your document (or wherever).
In
the meantime, the clipspeak add-on works for the most part I believe.
Just to be clear, I was never having a go at those who use the add-on, my
suggestion to disable it was simply to take eliminate one possible variable when
investigating the original problem.
Regards
Quentin. On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
Quentin
Christensen
Training and Support Manager Basic
Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
www.nvaccess.org Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess Twitter: @NVAccess
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