Re: Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes


Gene
 

I'll add that I have found, while preparing my messages in this thread, one instance where a misleading, though in a way literally accurate message is given. 
 
I copied a web page address to the clipboard from the address bar.  I then looked at the web page.  I had forgotten that I had copied the address and returned to the address bar.  On trying to copy the address, I received a no change message.  As far as I know, the information was copied to the clipboard again but because it was the same information, the add on reported no change.  This is the only misleading message I've gotten and I'm confident it can be corrected.  I never had such an occurrence in JAWS.  It simply announced copied to clipboard when something was copied twice because it was copied again.  It was the identical material and it replaced the previous identical material but it was copied.
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:26 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Here is the discussion I told you about where including a read clipboard contents command is debated. 
As I said, it was like pulling teeth to get this feature included.  I didn't read the entire discussion and I don't remember if anything was decided at that time.  but again the assertion is made, that is incorrect based on my years of experience, that when something is copied or pasted to or from the clipboard, that whether the events occurred or not can't be accurately determined.  I've already addressed this in my previous message.  but with this sort of rigid ideology, is it any wonder that this false assertion wasn't tested an evaluated and that no effort has been made to add copy and paste announcements to NVDA?  And in complete contradiction to this rigid ideology, why is there a links list in Browse Mode?  Why can this be altered to move by headings and other structures?  No sighted person has a links list or any other such structure.  So not only is this ideology rigid and in some cases obstructive, it isn't consistently applied. 
 
I am not in any way expressing a lack of appreciation for all of the excellent work done by NVDA developers and the time and effort it took.  but I am very frustrated when I see a feature that blind people have asked for for more than five years being shown no interest because ideology dictates that it shouldn't be considered.  Also, if people feel that they should pull their punches when discussing deficiencies in NVDA because they think that gratitude should cause them not to discuss them or do so meekly and mildly, they are not doing anyone any service. 
 
Gene
From: Gene
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

This message is rather long but that's because to explain my position takes time and space.  I have gone to the trouble because this has been an issue of frustration to me for years. 
 
I may be wrong when I thought that the main reason was that the developers didn't want NvDA to give information sighted users don't have.  But the reason given, as far back as about 2009 was incorrect based on all my years of experience with JAWS.  I didn't use System Access long enough to make such a statement but I did use it enough to say that I never saw an inaccurate report in that screen-reader.  I tested both screen-readers by not having anything selected and using the copy and paste commands.  In those tests, neither screen-reader reported any action.  the entire premise given in about 2009 is incorrect.  I shall provide a link to the brief discussion I found.  Perhaps I can find more discussion because this is such a recurring request over the years.  As I recall, Window-eyes at least for a time, did use a key label to indicate copy and paste which would have been inaccurate if nothing happened.  It is the only popular screen-reader in america that did this.  I don't know what Dolphin (spelling) did.  but I do know that in my roughly twelve years of using JAWS, I never once got a false report and in the times I used System Access, I didn't get a false report either.  I haven't received a false report using the NVDA add on for about two weeks either and I was alerted that my attempt to copy a file to the clipboard had failed, which saved me time and trouble. 
 
I don't have to technical knowledge to assess if the developer of the add on is correct in asserting that errors may occur when using his add on.  I can say with confidence that this feature can be accurate, based on twelve years' experience with JAWS. 
 
Here is the link to the discussion:
 
Aside from my previous objections, note the following quote:
This is an unreasonable expectation that can't, literally can't, be complied with.  When copying text to the clipboard, the speak clipboard feature can verify that it has been copied.  But when copying files or folders, there is no way to check except to paste them where desired, only to find that nothing was pasted because nothing was copied or the the wrong files and folders from a previous copy to the clipboard were pasted in the wrong. place. 
 
Of course, it is desirable that users become confident and competent computer users.  but many times, I have properly issued the copy command and I know I issued it correctly.  I then tried to paste what I had copied to find that I had copied nothing.  This didn't just happen once or twice but many times over a period of time when copying text or files and folders.
 
It is also much more efficient to hear a simple copied or copied to clipboard when copying text than to have to issue the speak clipboard contents command, listen for a moment to make sure that the material was copied, then continue with what I was doing.  And in the case of copying large amounts of material, it isn't read.  You are told how many characters have been copied.  Let's say you copy 23,374 characters to the clipboard, then listen to the announcement of how many characters you copy by issuing the speak clipboard contents command.  You then paste it where you want it.  Then you copy other text to the clipboard, or attempt to.  Is it reasonable that the user should remember the number of characters he copied the last time so that he can compare that number with the number he heard announced after copying the new material?  ans suppose the number is of similar or rather similar size. Let's say I copy 23,374 the first time.  Let's say that the second time, I hear 23,265.  Is it really reasonable that someone, while writing something like a research paper, be expected to remember such numbers whether they are similar or not?   
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

Thanks Gene,

I hadn't specifically looked into the way other screen readers handled it.  The notes for ClipSpeak say: "In order to prevent announcement in inappropriate situations, Clipspeak performs checks on the control and the clipboard in order to make an informed decision as to whether such an announcement is necessary. Because of this, Clipspeak's announcements may be inaccurate."

The point is that add-ons like these react to the keystroke, check the environment and whether the command (copy, paste etc) is theoretically possible, and then gives the report.  It is NOT confirmation that such an action has taken place, which is why we are reluctant to add it to core.  If we could be sure of that, I'd be all for adding it to core.  The argument about sighted users not having a visual indicator actually isn't 100% correct.  There is nothing on screen to say text was copied or pasted, however if you have text selected and you cut it, the text disappears visually.  If you paste text, then text suddenly appears in your document (or wherever).

In the meantime, the clipspeak add-on works for the most part I believe.  Just to be clear, I was never having a go at those who use the add-on, my suggestion to disable it was simply to take eliminate one possible variable when investigating the original problem.

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
That isn't correct.  I wrote about this a year or two ago when the topic came up for discussion one of the times that it did.  I tested JAWS and it knows when information is copied, as does System Access, which I also tested.  I don't remember if I tested Window-eyes and, clearly, clip speak does as well.  If it didn't, I wouldn't see a no change message when no change has occurred.  Also, it would be a needless duplication of the fake clipboard announcement add on that has been available for years. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

The reason why "cut", "copy", "paste" etc aren't always announced is simply that just because that is the common use for control+x, control+c and control+v respectively, we can't always tell whether anything was actually cut, copied or pasted.  To our knowledge, the way other screen readers which do announce this do it, is the same way that clip speak does - they announce it in most places because that is what usually happens, but it is possible there was an error or something else which prevented it, in which case telling the user text was copied is misleading.  There is also the "speak command keys" either via the keyboard preferences (NVDA+control+k) or directly with NVDA+4.  Note that NVDA does announce when text is copied in certain situations, particularly when using the review cursor where it was NVDA itself that copied the text.



On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
I use a very old version most of the time because I like the way review modes are offered in the interface as opposed to the newer versions.  It isn't an important diffference but since this version, one of the 13 versions, meets my needs and I prefer that part of the interface, I keep using it. 
 
I don't know what kind of problems you are having specifically and whether I might have any suggestions.
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

hi gene.
i again forgot which version of nvda do you use?
i yesterday tested 2012.2 version of nvda and realized that nvda has
many inconsistency using farsi language and i did not see any of these
problems in flat review.
whats the solution for me?
thanks so much and God bless you!

On 8/17/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> I'm not sure why this is, but based on my experience and on a message or two
> from others, at times, Clip Speak causes odd things to happen.  It works
> well on my machine in general but when I use Freemake video converter, Clip
> Speak doesn't allow me to paste a youtube address into the address field.  I
> assume that disabling it would stop the problem but the version of NVDA I
> use is too old to have disable available.  So I run a version of NVDA
> without Clip Speak installed and the problem disappears.
>
> I consider it well worth that slight inconvenience to get real time and
> accurate feed back about copying and pasting.  Once I was copying a file, as
> I recall, and Clip Speak told me that there had been no change.  I don't
> recall what I did after that but I got it to copy by fooling around in some
> way.  Maybe I just opened and closed My Computer and went back to the files
> list.  If I hadn't been using Clip Speak, I would have gone through the
> trouble of trying to paste a file that wasn't on the clipboard.  I would
> have failed and had to do more work.  There is simply no way of getting
> around it.  This feature should be and should have been built into NVDA from
> the outset.  Not to do so is to allow ideology about what screen-readers
> should and shouldn't do to override practical experience and common sense.
> There are rare instances when screen-readers should tell blind users things
> that a sighted person might not be informed of.  That is the reason I've
> always heard from developers about why the feature isn't in the program,
> that Windows doesn't indicate to sighted users when copying and pasting take
> place.  Is that true?  I was informed many years ago by a sighted user that
> there is some sort of icon, as I recall.  Whatever the case, that argument
> is, in my strong opinion irrelevant.
>
> A lot of NVDA users will never know about this add on.  And if the add on
> had been incorporated into program code at the outset, the bugs we are
> finding now would either not have existed or would have been worked out
> long, long ago.
>
> I'm very pleased that the add on has been developed but I still very
> strongly believe that this feature should be and should have been
> incorporated into NVDA from the outset.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Quentin Christensen
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:57 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
> modes
>
>
> I wonder if it's that clipspeak program?  If you try disabling / quitting
> that and then copying text from WordPad does it still paste the embedded
> object?
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 3:48 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
>   Well, I'm just plain awkward, quite obviously. I do not like the wordpad
> in 7. Its got ribbons I think and defaults to some strange file type.
> However, I find in word that if you paste in browse mode you get an embedded
> object in focus mode it will work but clipspeak when active generates a word
> out of memory error, which is totally spurious as it pastes in any case.
>   Brian
>
>   bglists@...
>   Sent via blueyonder.
>   Please address personal email to:-
>   briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>   in the display name field.
>   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
>   To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>   Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 1:04 PM
>   Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
> modes
>
>
>
>
>     You're using Windows 7, and which version of Office?  Are you using the
>     standard WordPad that comes with Windows or are you saying you've
> copied
>     the version out of XP?
>
>     I just tried it on Windows 10 using the build it WordPad and Office
> 2016
>     and everything worked as it should, but looks like that's a completely
>     different system to yours.  I'll try on my WIndows 7 PC in the morning.
>
>     When Word starts, NVDA *should* be in focus mode.  If you change to
> Browse
>     mode (NVDA+spacebar) then you shouldn't be able to type as it will be
>     looking for letters as single letter navigation keys to jump to
> elements.
>     You can paste text in this mode but you really need to go into focus
> mode
>     to manipulate it.
>
>     In Word's paste special options, which you can get to with
> control+alt+v,
>     you can paste a "Wordpad document object" (after opening the dialog,
> you
>     need to press up arrow once then enter - at least in Office 2016).  That
> is
>     basically an object box - like a picture or a text box or a chart, in
> your
>     document.  Visually it looks like whatever text you copied out of
> WordPad,
>     and when you activate or edit it, a Wordpad window opens with the text
>     inside.
>
>     To edit / activate it, you can double click it with the mouse,  There
>     doesn't seem to be a simple, equivalent keyboard shortcut that I can
> find,
>     but if you open the context menu, you can select "Wordpad document
> object",
>     then edit.
>
>
>
>     On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
> <
>     bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
>
>       OK, we have an rtf document in Wordpad
>       We have a blank Microsoft word. When Word opens the mode is
> apparently
>       normally in brose, but you can type into the file this way.
>       However say you grab some text from Wordpad and attempt to paste it
> into
>       word. It does not work as expected, you end up with an embedded object
> in
>       the file.
>       However if you switch word to focus mode, you can paste it in as
> normal.
>       Is this expected or a bug?
>
>       Note here that  since I have clipspeak involved, when I try to paste
> in
>       focus mode I get the out of memory warning which is bogus and can be
>       ignored due to who knows what.
>       I'd be particularly interested in people with different versions of
>       operating systems wordpad and word, as I tend to use the xp wordpad in
> 7
>       and an older style ie normal menus, version of word. Everything else
> seems
>       fine. I just need to remember to switch modes. I'm just wondering what
> the
>       embedded object pasted actually is?
>       Brian
>
>       bglists@...
>       Sent via blueyonder.
>       Please address personal email to:-
>       briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>       in the display name field.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     --
>     Quentin Christensen
>     Training and Support Manager
>
>     Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
> available:
>     http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>     Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>     www.nvaccess.org
>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>     Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
>
> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>


--
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in the very authentic narration is:
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--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

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