Re: how nvda does things, was [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes


Quentin Christensen
 

Re the original copying issue that started this thread, did you work out whether having clipspeak disabled fixed the issue? (Again, I'm not saying not to use it, but if you can test without it running, it will at least clarify whether that is involved in the embedded object issue in the first place).

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 6:47 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:


bglists@blueyonder    Well I more or less said the same I think in the followup message. I was speaking as I observed it over the years.
The Clipspeak  add on has, and I know the author is still worried about this, given some performance hits and the odd error as mentioned, and can get befuddled when cutting and pasting say from goldwave. So I'm tending toward actually putting back the old dumb add on for the  working version I use daily.
Also this issue I originally mentioned of getting embedded objects in word when the actual clipboard contents are textual is a little worrying and really should be trapped as I don't ever recall this being what windows did.
Minor irritations, and needs somebody to look at the reason.
I do notice however that most people I try to teach cut and paste to do like to hear they have at least pressed the right keys. Not everyone is a great typist, me included.
As for the tray. One big issue with the tray in some circumstances is that some misbehaving programs can launch simply by going to their icons. the intel bluetooth one in windows on some motherboards is one such. I have hidden it on my windows 7 machine but to somebody just starting it can be a real pain or in this case, pane as that software is inaccessible!
Also some of the icons and their wordings are far too big and get to overlap other things in the tray and often moving one way and then the other ends up with apparently differing results, so a window that shows what its actually there is useful at first.
Elements lists can be very handy on pages which have been designed by several people or are riddled with adverts etc, as you can be sure you hit the right thing.
Many more sites now won't let you in if you use ad blockers, after all.
All we need now is a reliable cap char reader and we are fine!

No wonder they term the audio version as a 'challenge'
Brian
.co.uk
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen" <quentin@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, August 17, 2017 9:23 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes


Hi Gene,

Thanks for all that info!  I don't have a problem with someone coming out
and saying where NVDA has deficiencies (ideally, do it here where it is
among the community, or by e-mail to us, where those with a direct interest
in NVDA can discuss it civilly, rather than in an external public forum,
preferably).

It's certainly true that when a feature is requested, one of the questions
to be answered is "what information do sighted users receive visually?"
Whatever the answer is, doesn't necessarily mean the feature is not
worthwhile or warranted.  I would argue that, where possible and efficient,
it's preferable to perform the same tasks as sighted users, or using
standard keystrokes rather than reinventing the wheel.  A good example is
accessing the system tray.  Some other screen readers have a command to
present the contents of the system tray in a new window, NVDA does not.
The reason we don't, is that the contents of the system tray are already
perfectly accessible with the WINDOWS+B command.  The advantage of a
dedicated window is that you guarantee you have all the icons there, where
depending on your setup, using WINDOWS+B you may need to move to the
"overflow" area, or else know how to set the option to always show all
icons.

There was a question in that issue thread you posted, about well, why does
NVDA have an elements list dialog?  That's a good example where yes you
could get around a web page with tab and / or the arrow keys, but it
wouldn't be efficient, and it would make accessing the web very
burdensome.  In addition, sighted users can jump directly to parts of the
page using the mouse - either by clicking on a form field such as an edit
box, or by scrolling the page down in which case their eyes instantly jump
to prominent features such as headings.  Back to the system tray, the
sighted user will likely use the mouse rather than WINOWS+B, but the result
is the same and for similar effort - the focus moves to the system tray,
where they can left or right click (enter or applications key) on an icon
to access its features.

Back to the specific question in this thread, which is announcing when text
has been copied, cut or pasted.  The last conversation I had on the issue
was, as I said before, that the way I believed tools such as clipspeak do
it, was not truly by knowing that something has been copied, but by
evaluating where the focus was, and what was selected as to whether
something was likely to have been copied.  That may in virtually all
situations, and if so, there may be a question of "is that good enough"?

If you believe things have progressed or you can bring a new argument in
favour, I'd encourage you to create a new GitHub issue.

Personally, I think since NVDA has the ability to read the clipboard
contents, then announcing when things are copied or pasted is a natural
enough progression, as long as it can be done accurately and without undue
overhead.

I don't take anything you've written as being an attack on anyone or
disrespectful.  Indeed, it's healthy to have these discussions.  Yes, the
developers do get the final say on what goes into core, so you need to
convince them to add or change features, but unlike other screen readers,
even if they say they won't add it, there is still ready access for someone
with the skills to submit the code themselves (often, Mick, Jamie and Reef
might not be against an idea, but not be able to prioritise it high enough
to work on themselves immediately) or create an add-on.

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 4:26 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

Here is the discussion I told you about where including a read clipboard
contents command is debated.
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/193
As I said, it was like pulling teeth to get this feature included.  I
didn't read the entire discussion and I don't remember if anything was
decided at that time.  but again the assertion is made, that is incorrect
based on my years of experience, that when something is copied or pasted to
or from the clipboard, that whether the events occurred or not can't be
accurately determined.  I've already addressed this in my previous
message.  but with this sort of rigid ideology, is it any wonder that this
false assertion wasn't tested an evaluated and that no effort has been made
to add copy and paste announcements to NVDA?  And in complete contradiction
to this rigid ideology, why is there a links list in Browse Mode?  Why can
this be altered to move by headings and other structures?  No sighted
person has a links list or any other such structure.  So not only is this
ideology rigid and in some cases obstructive, it isn't consistently
applied.

I am not in any way expressing a lack of appreciation for all of the
excellent work done by NVDA developers and the time and effort it took.
but I am very frustrated when I see a feature that blind people have asked
for for more than five years being shown no interest because ideology
dictates that it shouldn't be considered.  Also, if people feel that they
should pull their punches when discussing deficiencies in NVDA because they
think that gratitude should cause them not to discuss them or do so meekly
and mildly, they are not doing anyone any service.

Gene
*From:* Gene <gsasner@...>
*Sent:* Thursday, August 17, 2017 1:08 AM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes

This message is rather long but that's because to explain my position
takes time and space.  I have gone to the trouble because this has been an
issue of frustration to me for years.

I may be wrong when I thought that the main reason was that the developers
didn't want NvDA to give information sighted users don't have.  But the
reason given, as far back as about 2009 was incorrect based on all my years
of experience with JAWS.  I didn't use System Access long enough to make
such a statement but I did use it enough to say that I never saw an
inaccurate report in that screen-reader.  I tested both screen-readers by
not having anything selected and using the copy and paste commands.  In
those tests, neither screen-reader reported any action.  the entire premise
given in about 2009 is incorrect.  I shall provide a link to the brief
discussion I found.  Perhaps I can find more discussion because this is
such a recurring request over the years.  As I recall, Window-eyes at least
for a time, did use a key label to indicate copy and paste which would have
been inaccurate if nothing happened.  It is the only popular screen-reader
in america that did this.  I don't know what Dolphin (spelling) did.  but I
do know that in my roughly twelve years of using JAWS, I never once got a
false report and in the times I used System Access, I didn't get a false
report either.  I haven't received a false report using the NVDA add on for
about two weeks either and I was alerted that my attempt to copy a file to
the clipboard had failed, which saved me time and trouble.

I don't have to technical knowledge to assess if the developer of the add
on is correct in asserting that errors may occur when using his add on. I
can say with confidence that this feature can be accurate, based on twelve
years' experience with JAWS.

Here is the link to the discussion:
https://github.com/nvaccess/nvda/issues/75

Aside from my previous objections, note the following quote:
This is an unreasonable expectation that can't, literally can't, be
complied with.  When copying text to the clipboard, the speak clipboard
feature can verify that it has been copied.  But when copying files or
folders, there is no way to check except to paste them where desired, only
to find that nothing was pasted because nothing was copied or the the wrong
files and folders from a previous copy to the clipboard were pasted in the
wrong. place.

Of course, it is desirable that users become confident and competent
computer users.  but many times, I have properly issued the copy command
and I know I issued it correctly.  I then tried to paste what I had copied
to find that I had copied nothing.  This didn't just happen once or twice
but many times over a period of time when copying text or files and folders.

It is also much more efficient to hear a simple copied or copied to
clipboard when copying text than to have to issue the speak clipboard
contents command, listen for a moment to make sure that the material was
copied, then continue with what I was doing.  And in the case of copying
large amounts of material, it isn't read.  You are told how many characters
have been copied.  Let's say you copy 23,374 characters to the clipboard,
then listen to the announcement of how many characters you copy by issuing
the speak clipboard contents command.  You then paste it where you want
it.  Then you copy other text to the clipboard, or attempt to.  Is it
reasonable that the user should remember the number of characters he copied
the last time so that he can compare that number with the number he heard
announced after copying the new material?  ans suppose the number is of
similar or rather similar size. Let's say I copy 23,374 the first time.
Let's say that the second time, I hear 23,265.  Is it really reasonable
that someone, while writing something like a research paper, be expected to
remember such numbers whether they are similar or not?
Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Quentin Christensen <quentin@...>
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:44 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various
modes

Thanks Gene,

I hadn't specifically looked into the way other screen readers handled
it.  The notes for ClipSpeak say: "In order to prevent announcement in
inappropriate situations, Clipspeak performs checks on the control and the
clipboard in order to make an informed decision as to whether such an
announcement is necessary. Because of this, Clipspeak's announcements may
be inaccurate."

The point is that add-ons like these react to the keystroke, check the
environment and whether the command (copy, paste etc) is theoretically
possible, and then gives the report.  It is NOT confirmation that such an
action has taken place, which is why we are reluctant to add it to core.
If we could be sure of that, I'd be all for adding it to core.  The
argument about sighted users not having a visual indicator actually isn't
100% correct.  There is nothing on screen to say text was copied or pasted,
however if you have text selected and you cut it, the text disappears
visually.  If you paste text, then text suddenly appears in your document
(or wherever).

In the meantime, the clipspeak add-on works for the most part I believe.
Just to be clear, I was never having a go at those who use the add-on, my
suggestion to disable it was simply to take eliminate one possible variable
when investigating the original problem.

Regards

Quentin.

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:27 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

That isn't correct.  I wrote about this a year or two ago when the topic
came up for discussion one of the times that it did.  I tested JAWS and it
knows when information is copied, as does System Access, which I also
tested.  I don't remember if I tested Window-eyes and, clearly, clip speak
does as well.  If it didn't, I wouldn't see a no change message when no
change has occurred.  Also, it would be a needless duplication of the fake
clipboard announcement add on that has been available for years.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Quentin Christensen <quentin@...>
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2017 11:17 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in
various modes

The reason why "cut", "copy", "paste" etc aren't always announced is
simply that just because that is the common use for control+x, control+c
and control+v respectively, we can't always tell whether anything was
actually cut, copied or pasted.  To our knowledge, the way other screen
readers which do announce this do it, is the same way that clip speak does
- they announce it in most places because that is what usually happens, but
it is possible there was an error or something else which prevented it, in
which case telling the user text was copied is misleading.  There is also
the "speak command keys" either via the keyboard preferences
(NVDA+control+k) or directly with NVDA+4.  Note that NVDA does announce
when text is copied in certain situations, particularly when using the
review cursor where it was NVDA itself that copied the text.



On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 2:09 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

I use a very old version most of the time because I like the way review
modes are offered in the interface as opposed to the newer versions. It
isn't an important diffference but since this version, one of the 13
versions, meets my needs and I prefer that part of the interface, I keep
using it.

I don't know what kind of problems you are having specifically and
whether I might have any suggestions.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
*From:* nasrin khaksar <nasrinkhaksar3@...>
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 16, 2017 9:50 PM
*To:* nvda@nvda.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in
various modes

hi gene.
i again forgot which version of nvda do you use?
i yesterday tested 2012.2 version of nvda and realized that nvda has
many inconsistency using farsi language and i did not see any of these
problems in flat review.
whats the solution for me?
thanks so much and God bless you!

On 8/17/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> I'm not sure why this is, but based on my experience and on a message
or two
> from others, at times, Clip Speak causes odd things to happen.  It
works
> well on my machine in general but when I use Freemake video > converter,
Clip
> Speak doesn't allow me to paste a youtube address into the address
field.  I
> assume that disabling it would stop the problem but the version of
NVDA I
> use is too old to have disable available.  So I run a version of NVDA
> without Clip Speak installed and the problem disappears.
>
> I consider it well worth that slight inconvenience to get real time > and
> accurate feed back about copying and pasting.  Once I was copying a
file, as
> I recall, and Clip Speak told me that there had been no change.  I
don't
> recall what I did after that but I got it to copy by fooling around > in
some
> way.  Maybe I just opened and closed My Computer and went back to the
files
> list.  If I hadn't been using Clip Speak, I would have gone through > the
> trouble of trying to paste a file that wasn't on the clipboard.  I
would
> have failed and had to do more work.  There is simply no way of > getting
> around it.  This feature should be and should have been built into
NVDA from
> the outset.  Not to do so is to allow ideology about what
screen-readers
> should and shouldn't do to override practical experience and common
sense.
> There are rare instances when screen-readers should tell blind users
things
> that a sighted person might not be informed of.  That is the reason
I've
> always heard from developers about why the feature isn't in the
program,
> that Windows doesn't indicate to sighted users when copying and
pasting take
> place.  Is that true?  I was informed many years ago by a sighted > user
that
> there is some sort of icon, as I recall.  Whatever the case, that
argument
> is, in my strong opinion irrelevant.
>
> A lot of NVDA users will never know about this add on.  And if the > add
on
> had been incorporated into program code at the outset, the bugs we > are
> finding now would either not have existed or would have been worked > out
> long, long ago.
>
> I'm very pleased that the add on has been developed but I still very
> strongly believe that this feature should be and should have been
> incorporated into NVDA from the outset.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Quentin Christensen
> Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 6:57 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in > various
> modes
>
>
> I wonder if it's that clipspeak program?  If you try disabling /
quitting
> that and then copying text from WordPad does it still paste the
embedded
> object?
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 3:48 AM, Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io
> <bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
>   Well, I'm just plain awkward, quite obviously. I do not like the
wordpad
> in 7. Its got ribbons I think and defaults to some strange file type.
> However, I find in word that if you paste in browse mode you get an
embedded
> object in focus mode it will work but clipspeak when active generates
a word
> out of memory error, which is totally spurious as it pastes in any
case.
>   Brian
>
>   bglists@...
>   Sent via blueyonder.
>   Please address personal email to:-
>   briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>   in the display name field.
>   ----- Original Message ----- From: "Quentin Christensen"
> <quentin@...>
>   To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
>   Sent: Wednesday, August 16, 2017 1:04 PM
>   Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in
various
> modes
>
>
>
>
>     You're using Windows 7, and which version of Office?  Are you
using the
>     standard WordPad that comes with Windows or are you saying you've
> copied
>     the version out of XP?
>
>     I just tried it on Windows 10 using the build it WordPad and > Office
> 2016
>     and everything worked as it should, but looks like that's a
completely
>     different system to yours.  I'll try on my WIndows 7 PC in the
morning.
>
>     When Word starts, NVDA *should* be in focus mode.  If you change > to
> Browse
>     mode (NVDA+spacebar) then you shouldn't be able to type as it > will
be
>     looking for letters as single letter navigation keys to jump to
> elements.
>     You can paste text in this mode but you really need to go into
focus
> mode
>     to manipulate it.
>
>     In Word's paste special options, which you can get to with
> control+alt+v,
>     you can paste a "Wordpad document object" (after opening the
dialog,
> you
>     need to press up arrow once then enter - at least in Office
2016).  That
> is
>     basically an object box - like a picture or a text box or a > chart,
in
> your
>     document.  Visually it looks like whatever text you copied out of
> WordPad,
>     and when you activate or edit it, a Wordpad window opens with the
text
>     inside.
>
>     To edit / activate it, you can double click it with the mouse,
There
>     doesn't seem to be a simple, equivalent keyboard shortcut that I
can
> find,
>     but if you open the context menu, you can select "Wordpad > document
> object",
>     then edit.
>
>
>
>     On Wed, Aug 16, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io
> <
>     bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io> wrote:
>
>
>       OK, we have an rtf document in Wordpad
>       We have a blank Microsoft word. When Word opens the mode is
> apparently
>       normally in brose, but you can type into the file this way.
>       However say you grab some text from Wordpad and attempt to > paste
it
> into
>       word. It does not work as expected, you end up with an embedded
object
> in
>       the file.
>       However if you switch word to focus mode, you can paste it in > as
> normal.
>       Is this expected or a bug?
>
>       Note here that  since I have clipspeak involved, when I try to
paste
> in
>       focus mode I get the out of memory warning which is bogus and
can be
>       ignored due to who knows what.
>       I'd be particularly interested in people with different > versions
of
>       operating systems wordpad and word, as I tend to use the xp
wordpad in
> 7
>       and an older style ie normal menus, version of word. Everything
else
> seems
>       fine. I just need to remember to switch modes. I'm just
wondering what
> the
>       embedded object pasted actually is?
>       Brian
>
>       bglists@...
>       Sent via blueyonder.
>       Please address personal email to:-
>       briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
>       in the display name field.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>     --
>     Quentin Christensen
>     Training and Support Manager
>
>     Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
> available:
>     http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>     Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <+61%207%203149%203306>
>     www.nvaccess.org
>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>     Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Quentin Christensen
> Training and Support Manager
>
>
> Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
available:
> http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/
>
>
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <+61%207%203149%203306>
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>
>


--
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in the very authentic narration is:
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--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now
available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <%2B61%207%203149%203306>
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess




--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <%2B61%207%203149%203306>
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess





--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available:
http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

Ph +61 7 3149 3306
www.nvaccess.org
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
Twitter: @NVAccess








--
Quentin Christensen
Training and Support Manager

Basic Training for NVDA & Microsoft Word with NVDA E-Books now available: http://www.nvaccess.org/shop/

www.nvaccess.org 
Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess 
Twitter: @NVAccess 

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