Re: Access, teaching and concepts for blind use of computers, was Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

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Just catching up on this one.
The problem was highlighted recently when I needed someone specifically to help me interpret what a sighted user was actually doing into my keyboard orientated world. You are right that most sighted users not only do not know the keyboard shortcuts, but worse, do not understand the concepts of what they are actually doing when dragging files about and selecting folders to put stuff in, many just accepting defaults set up on an install. This comes to a head when a sighted relative uses a blind configured computer as they may use a click that reset something you had painstakingly altered, many months back and since they do not tell you you then need to fiddle for ages to get your functionality back.

All of these things are windows, not screenreader commands, normally.
I notice that in Supernova, there is a separate chapter on windows conventions and shortcuts and how different settings of windows can affect the user like us.
I guess the single and double click alterations is one of the main ones that gets moved quite often.

Unfortunately, in all the different flavours of windows, the way to get at settings changes somewhat.
I also have issues with concepts when they change. I do not like ribbon menus for blind use. I have had them explained until steam is coming out of a tutors ears, but as I learned on logical normal pull down menus. Ribbons seems a bit of a mess, putting all sorts of things I have thought were different, together in one big 'pudding'. So toolbars, property sheets sub menus and all sorts of stuff comes up unexpectedly as the brain has partitioned these objects as different things not likely to be in the menu system directly.

I use things like control/shift no for new folder which seems to be something my sighted colleagues never even knew was possible and the like, so, I guess I have a foot in many camps and the challenge is to attempt to cater for people like me who do not like change to concepts. That is one reason I do not like the new apps in Windows 10, as they seem to be a step back in time to a non standard as you like approach to software we had in the old Dos days. If we can no longer rely on finding things where we always used to, it will be very hard to teach anyone how to use them if the interface changes every time an update comes out.

Its about time that accessibility was not just seen as, yes you can get at and operate a button or control, but that there needs to be some underlying logic and short cut key set everyone uses. Its like many web sites which claim to be accessible as everything reads, but its so big and messy that without an overview as the sighted has, the poor old blind user is completely at sea as to what else might be on the page in a stupid place.
I feel better now.
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Brian Vogel" <>
To: <>
Sent: Friday, August 18, 2017 2:04 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Cutting and pasting from wordpad to word in various modes

On Thu, Aug 17, 2017 at 04:13 pm, Quentin Christensen wrote:

Just on your point about the system tray commands needing to be taught, I
agree that people should know them, however exactly where to cover them is
the issue. They are not NVDA commands, therefore are not suitable to be
put in the NVDA User Guide. They do get a mention in the Basic Training
for NVDA module since that does walk the user through learning how to use
the computer as a whole with NVDA.

Now I'm going to do one of my rare instances of having one foot on both sides of the fence. As a screen-reader tutor for many years now it has been a constant battle to teach the actual field counselors who contract me that it is, literally, not possible to teach "how to use a screen reader" unless one is using a screen reader to do something that we who can see do with some program we use to do it. A screen reader is a tool that has no useful function if it is not being used to manipulate something else. Thus, in order to teach people how to use a screen reader you must, at the same time, be teaching (or re-teaching) them how to do the "something else" they do with it.

But, and it's an important but, no one should expect the documentation for a screen reader to address every possible eventuality as far as using Windows goes. In my own tutorial on using the ribbon interface in Windows via the keyboard (and, of course, with the presumption of a screen reader running) I cover it only for Windows Explorer and explicitly state that the principles discussed there apply to any program using a ribbon interface, because they do. The point is to teach how to explore other stuff independently, not to cover every eventuality.

Just as I have posted step-by-step instructions I've written for screen reader users on sites not focused on same, expecting that when I say something like, " ALT+T,R to open the Tools menu, References Dialog " a sighted user knows that means, "Click on the Tools menu and choose the References item," I conversely should be able to expect a screen reader user *who is not entirely new to the game* to read instructions written for the sighted and understand how those convert over to screen reader and/or Windows keystrokes. I have gotten a lot more static for that latter presumption than I've ever gotten for the former, and if one does not know it's not impossible, or even all that difficult, to research the answer. Most sighted users have no idea of anything beyond a few keyboard commands, if that. But the idea that "click on" means "activate" is much more direct.

You are correct that no documentation for any screen reader could or should cover every possible thing you do with Windows. The really odd stuff that any of us use very infrequently, if at all, should be expected to require personal research regardless of one's ability to see or not.

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1703, Build 15063 (dot level on request - it changes too often to keep in signature)

* * *The opposite of a correct statement is a false statement.* * But the opposite of a profound truth may well be another* * profound truth.*

* ~ * *Niels Bohr*

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