Well to be honest who knows even when adobe and others put the basic standards in its a hit and miss thing.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
And sadly its what is holding us blind people back.
I shouldn't be thinking windows xp is better or dos is better, or my old blindy product has been better.
But I am.
And to be honest I doubt vary much that we can actually make companies change at all we are just to small.
They have to want to from office to security companies,etc.
I still use a lot of 32 bit desktop apps.
But I am a home user.
I don't need ms office or business software I have a budget antivirus program, a scanner and video conversion suite which did cost a lot and a midrange audio editer come cd ripper as well as a audio decoder for dvds.
I have a few games, and then the rest is opensource or freeware,.
I don't need much in the way of accessible software, most of my stuff is simple.
We can't even get the simple stuff sometimes to work let alone the universals.
One thing I'd like to see is some sort of blindy spaciffic windows shell or something that just works without all the bells on it.
On 5/09/2017 3:24 a.m., Joseph Lee wrote:
As I noted on Win10 forum (not here) numerous times, the level of accessibility of universal apps depends on willingness from vendors to take accessibility seriously and commit to it. In other words, what matters now is attitudes, not just aptitude. Microsoft is a prime example of what happens when a company takes accessibility seriously, whereas Facebook is not (I myself have given up on accessibility of Facebook universal app; sending numerous advisories and attempts at talking to FB to take accessibility seriously didn't work). But attitudes from vendors is just part of the picture: attitudes from screen reader vendors is also important, as VFO customers are finding out the hard way these days, just as NVDA users did two years ago when support for Edge and universal apps was in infancy. As this month happens to be the second anniversary of Windows 10 App Essentials, I'll reaffirm my vow that, as long as Windows 10 ecosystem and universal apps live, I'll continue to provide new versions of this add-on (the next stable version is scheduled for tomorrow and it supports changes made to Windows Store in August via release preview ring).
By the way, apart from one or two issues, NVDA 2017.3 is ready for Windows 10 Fall Creators Update (the issues are inability to navigate emoji panel with synthesizers other than OneCore and not being able to adjust speech rate for this synthesizer just yet, both of which require using newer Windows SDK versions).
From: email@example.com [mailto:firstname.lastname@example.org] On Behalf Of Lino Morales
Sent: Monday, September 4, 2017 4:36 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Windows older versions
Speaking of UWP apps Joseph needs to circulate his awesome post on making them accessible in WIN 10. We haven't made any progress in my opinion in the blindness coummity contacting MS. Facebook and FB Messenger being the 2 that once were.
On 9/4/2017 4:59 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
I know I read it, but to be honest. its a concept issue. Some of use
find the logic hard to actually get into our motor memory, whereas the
old sort of menus worked as each was obviously the same from the logic
point of view. but I'm not going to start a ribbon vs other ideas
thread of annoyance here. Far more worrying are these badly named
universal apps where it seems almost anything goes from no menu bars
to some and with buttons dumped any old place for no good reason on
the screen. Brian
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Sent: Sunday, September 03, 2017 6:32 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Windows older versions
Regardless of all the doom and gloom you hear all over about ribbons,
th3ey are nothing more than a different and perfectly logical way of
organizing programs. Here is a tutorial I wrote to provide
instruction in learning ribbons. it appears below my signature.
I'll provide a brief tutorial based on what I wrote years ago of how
to work with ribbons.
I've added a little to it here.
I don't know how the organization of Windows has changed in Windows 10
but this description should allow you to look through the Windows
ribbons, or any other ribbons, and see how things are organized.
First, I'll discuss a structure found in later versions of Windows
that you need to know about-- the split button.
One thing you will see as you look around ribbons and in other places
in Windows are split buttons. A split button often allows you to see
more options than just the default action. Let's take an example.
Let's say you come across a split button that says shut down Windows.
If you press enter on that button, Windows will shut down. That is
the default action. Split buttons often show more options if you
either right arrow while on the button or down arrow. As an example,
if you are on the shut down split button, you can right arrow and a
list of options will open. the items in the list include sleep,
hibernate, restart, and others. You up or down arrow through the list
or use the short cut commands you hear announced as you move through
the list. the letter shortcuts often take actions without pressing
enter so be careful when using them, just as you are in menus.
So, let's review. You find a split button that says shut down. If you
press enter, the computer will shut down. If you right arrow, other
options may be displayed. Or if you down arrow, other options may be
displayed. A split button won't work with both methods. One method,
either right arrowing or down arrowing will do so if it can be done
with the button. Try both methods if you don't know which one might
work. If you are on a tool bar which extends across the screen from
left to right, down arrowing will open additional options. If you
think about this, it makes sense. If you are in a menu, down arrowing
will move you to the next item in the menu. So you right arrow on the
split button to cause it to display more options. In a tool bar that
extends across the screen from left to right, right arrowing will move
you to the next item in the tool bar. So you down arrow when on the
split button to cause it to display more options. But some tool bars
run up and down the screen, as menus do. And at times, you may not be
sure which way a structure extends on screen. So, as I said, if you
are not sure or don't know, try both methods of causing the split
button to display more options. Often, one of them will work. If you
open the options a split button offers and don't want to work with
them, arrow in the opposite direction to move out of them. For
example, if you right arrowed to open more options, left arrow.
Some split buttons don't do anything when you right arrow or down
arrow. In that case, open them with alt down arrow. Then tab through
the additional options. I've almost never worked in this way with
split buttons but if you want to close a split button, try alt up
arrow if you've used alt down arrow to open it.
Now, to ribbons themselves.
Regarding ribbons, much of the complaining about them is not warranted
if you understand how they work and how to use short cut commands
effectively and efficiently. and I would strongly recommend against
using the JAWS virtual menus, no matter what the JAWS training
material says about ribbons being difficult to use. the training
material is just plain wrong and using virtual menus, you will be
unnecessarily dependent on one screen-reader. There are other
disadvantages to using them which I won't go into here.
Try looking at ribbons and doing what is described below in wordpad.
Everyone with Windows 7 has Wordpad on their machine. Wordpad provides
a good environment to look at and practice working with ribbons.
The essence of working with ribbons is this:
Press alt to move to the upper ribbon.
You will probably be on an item that says home tab. Items on the upper
ribbon are announced as tabs such as home tab, view tab, etc.
To see what ribbons are available, right or left arrow repeatedly to
move through the ribbons. Move in one direction to move through all
of them, just as you would to move through all the menus.
For this demonstration, just so we are all doing the same thing, move
with the right arrow. When you get back to where you started, you can
keep right arrowing to move through the items again, if you wish. You
can move through all the items as many times as you want. Or you can
move with the left arrow whenever you want to move in the opposite
Stop on view. Then start tabbing. You will move through all items in
what is called the lower ribbon that are in the view ribbon.
In other words you tab to see the items in a ribbon once you move to
it. Tab moves you forward through the items, shift tab moves you
So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Many items in the lower ribbon are buttons. Use either the space bar
or enter to activate the button. You may find a button that opens a
menu and if you press enter or the space bar, you will then be in a menu.
Each time you move to an item, you will hear the short cut command to
work with that item.
But JAWS has a bug and you often won't. To hear the short cut, use
the command JAWS key tab. If you are using the default JAWS key, it
is either insert.
Try tabbing to an item in a Wordpad ribbon and using the command
insert tab. You will hear some extraneous information. The last thing
you will hear is the short cut sequence. You can repeat the
information by repeating the command as often as you want.
Let's look at an item which is usually called the application menu.
Return to the main program window in wordpad by closing the ribbons.
You can either press escape repeatedly, if necessary, or you can press
alt once. Now, open the ribbons again with alt.
Start right arrowing until you get to the application menu.
You will hear application menu and then something like button drop
down grid. Never mind drop down grid. It's a description you don't
have to worry about. The important things are that you are on a
button and at the application menu. Press enter or the space bar to
activate the button. Activating the button opens the menu. Start down
arrowing. you will hear all the short cut commands necessary to open
an item or take an action. When you got to the menu item, you heard
alt f. When you open the menu and move through it, you will hear all
the letters announced. for example, if you down arrow to save as, you
will hear alt f a. that means that, when you are in the main program
window, you open the menu as you always did, alt f, then type a. Alt
f opens the menau and a then opens save as. Ribbon programs have one
menu and you should look through it. Many important and common
commands and interfaces such as options may be there. By options, I
mean the kind of options interface you used to find in the tools menu.
Now the we have seen the menu, let's look at the ribbons structure
To review, and add more information, as you have seen, you can move to
the ribbon interface with alt. Then right and left arrow, just as you
would move from menu to menu.
You can also move to a ribbon using alt and a letter. So, alt h takes
you to the home ribbon. Alt v takes you to the view ribbon, etc.
Once you are on the ribbon you want to work with, tab to move forward
through the items in a ribbon. Shift tab to move back through the
items. So tab and shift tab are used instead of up and down arrow.
Ribbons are divided into categories which you will hear announced as
you tab. for example, in an e-mail program, a ribbon may have a
category named respond. You may hear this announced as respond tool
bar. As you tab, you will hear commands such as reply and forward in
the respond category. When you hear a category announced, don't tab
until you hear everything spoken. You will miss the first command in
the category if you do. I'm talking about working with an unfamiliar
there are often many more commands and items in a ribbon than in a
menu. So memorize command sequences for items you know you will use
As I said, there are different categories in ribbons to help organize
items. You can quickly jump from category to category in a ribbon to
help you see if there is a category you want to look through.
Move to a ribbon in Wordpad. For example, alt h for hhome or alt v
Then repeatedly issue the command control right arrow to move forward
from category to category and control left arrow to move back. When
you get to a category you want to hear the items in, start tabbing.
Of course, you can shift tab to move back.
Open a ribbon in Wordpad and tab through it to see how it is organized
by moving through it.
Then use control right arrow to move by category and tab to see what
is in a category.
Commands such as control o, control n, control s, control r, etc. are
mostly retained in programs that use ribbons, though you won't hear
them announced. If you don't already know them, you'll have to find
them in ways such as by looking at a list of keyboard commands for the
program. Such lists are often available in the help for the program.
If you already know the commands from having used an older version of
the program, most or perhaps even all of the commands you know will