-----Original Message-----
From: Shaun Everiss [mailto:sm.everiss@...]
Sent: April-19-16 5:55 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?

I agree, I am not here by choice.
While I could afford a change up, its more a question of exactly what I
would need it for.
And I can't get every change.
maybe 1 or 2 changes every 5-10 years in my current situation.
But being without a job etc, changing is at the end of a long list
though if and when it happens, it happens.
Even if that means I get a machine for my old games, and audio stuff
that is offline and runs xp or 7 and then have another machine that
handles the web, and email who knows.
Not thought passed that.



On 20/04/2016 12:08 p.m., Arlene wrote:

No it doesn’t. Also too, Yes blind people do wine over change.But, We all need to take into consideration their walk of life. If they can’t afford new equipment for many reasons. Yes they should update if something like xp is no longer usable on the web. Also, most blind people do need to quit wining! It makes it look bad for those who want to change but can’t afford it! I will change if I have to. I’m saving money to get myself a new hard drive so I can update to ten if I have to. I will learn ten if I have to. Don’t worry I’m not wining! Loll!



From: David Moore [mailto:jesusloves1966@...]
Sent: April-19-16 3:51 PM
To: nvda@groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



Hi Jene,

That is exactly what I do. It sure does not hurt to have two screen readers at your finger tips either.

You can have JAWS as a 40 minute demo mode just in case, and JAWS users can get NVDA for free. You should not be attacked if you use two screen readers LOL! That type of memorizing will not get you around on many sites you have never been on. Take care all.





From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 6:07 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



I'm not sure what you have in mind by someone telling you. I'll discuss the Internet in the rest of this message.



There are certain structures that you have to use the virtual mouse of your screen-reader to activate and those represent a lack of accessibility. but those who design sites often know little, if anything, about accessibility. And even if a site is accessible, if a bnlind person doesn't know how to find things on sites efficiently, they may waste a lot of time doing unnecessary things. For example, they may tab through item after item on a site when using the find command might allow them to find something very quickly. Continuing with the Internet as an example, to use the Internet to anywhere near it's potential in terms of efficiency, you have to know how to work with sites you haven't worked with before. A good deal of my Internet use is doing google searches and looking up information on sites I've never used or seldom used. Some people micromemorize sites, for example, memorizing that this or that is the second heading level 4 on a site. You simply can't use the Inter

net well in terms of working with large numbers of sites if you rely on such micromemorization. If people want to micromemorize this or that item on a site they use constantly, I'm not telling them that they shouldn't. but when I see people engage in such micromemorization, it raises the question for me if they know how to work with sites efficiently in general.

When I'm on a site I use often and I want to find the editorial link, I use the find command and search for the link. If it were a heading and I could get there efficiently by moving by heading, I might do that. but it isn't. the find command is the only way I know to find the link efficiently on the site.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Katty Geltmeyer <mailto:kattygeltmeyer@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 4:15 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



Gene, you are right, I understand your point. But it would be helpful if someone tells you what are the changes, so that you can explore a website or programme more efficiently. I don't have an overview of pages etc. so, I go exploring. But this takes some time. And if buttons change behaviour, I mean if you could activate them by using space bar or enter in the past and now they need some other way to be activated, that's a bit a hassle if no one could assist you.



Best, Katty



Van: Gene [mailto:gsasner@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 10:41
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



That is true in some cases but in many, that is a real exaggeration and reflects users not understanding how to learn the structure of a program or not understanding a new structure such as ribbons.



Lots of times, if a web site changes, what is desired can easily be found on the site by using the find command. For example, from time to time, Send Space has changed the way you begin a file download. There might have been a link that says download, for example. That link was changed to a button but if someone is used to using the links list, an artificial structure that separates them from the page and doesn't know how to explore the page itself, they may well have considerable difficulty and may need help to find out how to download again. This does not need to be a crisis. All that need be done is to go to the top of the page and use your screen-reader's find command to search the page for the word download. You will immediately see that download is now a button and you can then simply type the letter b when a Send Space download page opens to move to it.

If a program changes its structure, such as by adopting ribbons, if you know how to look through ribbons, you can look through them and, if desired, make notes of the key combinations to perform certain functions. This is similar to what you might do in a menu program. Far too many blind people are taught to do things by rote and so any change may be a crisis. In many cases, if taught properly, it can be just an inconvenience.



I'm not saying there aren't real problems such as when a program becomes inaccessible or much less so with a new release. But I am saying that many problems could be reduced to inconveniences if blind people were taught to conceptualize what they are doing and not to take certain actions by rote without real understanding of how something is structured and how to learn programs by trying different ways of learning about it such as looking through menus or ribbons.



Some blind people will find such ways of conceptualizing and learning difficult and some will find them easy and some in between. But many people are never taught such things so easy, difficult or in between for them, they never get to find out.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Katty Geltmeyer <mailto:kattygeltmeyer@...>

Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2016 2:47 AM

To: nvda@groups.io

Subject: Re: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



For seeing persons, compare the situation of the blind with the following: you are used to go to your local supermarket, and nearly to find everything you need on the shelves by almost walking asleep (you know what to find where). At a certain day, everything is changed: the name of the store, the products inside, the position of the products on the shelves, the shelves themselves, the several departments (bakery, vegetables, …) everything you can think of is changed. Unfortunately you are forced to wander through the store without having an overview of the store, no scanning of the shelves with the eyes, … After a mornth, you are used to the new store and products and their place in the store, everything changes again and you can start all over again. Isn't this a nightmare? Well, that's what the blind are forced to do every time a website, a programme, … changes.



In fact, I should post this to the accessible googlegroup.



Best, Katty



Van: n8mnx@... [mailto:n8mnx@...]
Verzonden: dinsdag 19 april 2016 4:14
Aan: nvda@groups.io
Onderwerp: [nvda] why does seem that so many blind people are so against change?



I think that maybe blind people are not against change for the sake of change but it's the fear that their old favorite programs won't work and how accessable will the new os be or how accessable will the new programs be. I to did like windows xp with outlook express and when I was concitering upgrading to windows 7 I was hesitent because I did not know what email program would work and be accessable. I did of course upgrade and used windows live mail and when I began to have issues with it I went to thunderbird and I now have windows 10 and I still use thunderbird. I think that the reason that we all like outlook express isthat it is just a simple email program with nobells and whistles like calendars or features that we don't need or can't use. Outlook express will always be the best email program but we have adapted to other programs but that does not mean that we are happy with them we just adjust. We all don't like change but we can and do adapt but we don't like it

. With new versions of windows there may be features that we don't need or want or we can't use but we use what we want to use or what we can use. I know that every one has their screen reader of choice and they think that theirs is the best I use nvdathen there is the issue of winamp it's no longer supported but I still have not been convinced that there is a better program so I will just keep using it. We should upgrade if we need to but we chould not have change fordced upon us this should be our choice. Think of the Omish people they don't have cars they still use horse and buggies that is their choice and so is somones choice if they still use windows xp if they are willing to take the risk thats their choice and not ours.

Brian Sackrider

On 4/18/2016 9:48 PM, Pauline Smith wrote:

Change is hard, but we must adjust. I wasn't fond of Win 7 when I got this computer, but I have adjusted. When a colleague told me how to find and put terms into the search bar by hitting the Start button, much frustration has been saved. Now, I'm comtemplating doing the upgrade to Win 10. I just wanted to make sure I knew what I was getting into before doing it.

Pauline

On 4/18/2016 6:27 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

Rosemarie Chavarria wrote, in regard to a friend of hers who insisted on staying with WinXP, "I asked him why and his answer was that it was simpler to work with."

And I can't count the times I've heard this, about way more than Windows, and thought, "No, it's not easier to work with - it's what you're used to." Win XP was an OS I loved and Microsoft has the annoying habit of alternating "good" and "bad" versions of Windows. The number of things that require manual intervention from the user in XP is huge compared to later versions, particularly Windows 7 forward. And, when it comes down to it, even in the "ugly" versions of Windows the similarities to their predecessors is at least as strong as the differences, but the differences are where people are required to learn something new.

David Moore's comments regarding those who live to be 100, or near it, really resonate with me. My grandmother died in the 1990s and was in her 90s at the time. When I think about what technology was at her birth and the amount of change she and her age cohort had to go through I am amazed. I don't know if I could be as flexible as they were. While the pace of change has picked up, particularly in the cyber world, the majority of changes I've lived through (I'm just short of 54 years old) feel to me much more like refinements on very familiar themes rather than complete divergences from what came before. That was not true for my grandparents at all, and my parents experienced more revolutionary changes than I have, too. I think my only two revolutions were the introduction of the personal computer and the ascendance of the internet.

Brian