Re: NVDA and Using The Edge Browser


Gene
 

Just because you may not understand how to use something well doesn't mean it isn't efficient or reasonably so when well understood.  My point is that, instead of making that assumption, seeking out more information by asking questions if something seems unreasonably cumbersome is a good idea if you are going to use that thing enough that it matters from a standpoint of efficiency or ease of use.  For example, asking questions here earlier might have saved you considerable inconvenience and annoyance.  Since you have brought up the subject now, the following may help you considerably in understanding ribbons and finding out important information about efficient use.
 
Logic is present in the letter strings of ribbons, though not always as well executed, as desirable from a standpoint of convenience, but this is a minor drawback.  Ribbons often use more letters in a command than menus did but the commands are logical.  With ribbons, because of the longer letter strings and because there are often many more items in a ribbon than in a menu, if there is a command you will use enough to want quick access, you can make a note of it if you don't think you will remember it.
 
I don't have Windows 10 so let's look at the logic of a command or two in Windows Live Mail.  If you want to reply to a message, you can still use control r, but if you couldn't, the ribbon command is very logical.  It is h then r then r again.  What do these letters stand for?  alt h is home ribbon, where the command is located.  The first r is for the respond group, the category where the command is located.  The second r is for reply, the actual command.  In ribbons, commands are clustered in groups according to categories.  In this case, reply is in the respond category, how are you going to respond to a message, if you do.  Reply to sender is one response.  Reply to all is another possible response and tabbing once more tells you that the letter string for that command is alt h then r then a.  Alt h, for home ribbon, r for respond group, a all. 
 
You can save a lot of tabbing in ribbons if you move by category and look through the category where you think a command wwill be.  The commands to move by category are control right arrow to move forward by category and control left arrow to move bafckward. Since a lot of commands are in the home ribbon and since reply wouldn't logically be in the other ribbons such as view, you would look in the home ribbon.  You can use control right arrow to move forward from category to category.  You would move through the categories untill you get to respond.  At that point, you would stop because respond is the logical place the reply command would be.  Reply is a response and it’s the most logical place to look.  Once you stop, you would let the full speech read where you stop.  That's because in ribbons, you don't just hear the category, you hear the first item in that category.  You are on the first item.  So you hear the category because you are on the first item in the category and the first item, which you are on. You also hear the letter string, in this case, alt h then r then r again.  
 
As you tab through respond, you will get to forward, which is a split button.  I'm not sure why the split button works as it does here and I won't go into the unexpected behavior.  But note that, once you are on that split button, you hear an unusual thing for a ribbon.  You hear the control plus letter spoken.  You are told that control f is forward.  Very convenient.  
 
Menus are more obviously logical at times and the shorter letter strings make them more convenient, slightly, from a command point of view.  But issuing one extra letter and at times two really doesn't amount to any meaningful inconvenience.  And the number of commands you would regularly use in a ribbon are small so memorizing them would generally not be taxing.  So you may prefer menus for such reasons as I have given but my point in this demonstration is that ribbons are not the monstrosity so many blind people believe they are.  they may be considered a minor nuisance when compared to menus but they really aren't more than that unless someone has a problem which makes conceptualization of them difficult and that is a problem that some people may have, like a learning disability but not a general problem.  As I said in my previous message, the reasons so many blind people don't like ribbons is poor or no instruction or inadequate instruction.  
 
My message may helpe those who are using ribbons and already know something about doing so use them more efficiently and not regard them as more than a minor inconvenience when compared to menus.  
 
In your Windows 10 example. I don't have Windows 10 so I don't know what most of the letters in your example stand for.  Whatever they stand for, what they stand for and their progression in the sequence is logical. 
 
Gene   

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, October 30, 2017 12:13 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Using The Edge Browser

I'm just speaking on a blind persons view.
I wanted to change the lay out of my folder and I kept going in circles.
I wanted the details view but it took me a lot longer to accomplish the task.
I thought logic is what goes into computers?
I'm not sure what to think any more.
lat m for move instead of alt v?
 
 
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From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jaffar Sidek
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 10:39 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Using The Edge Browser

Once you take the trouble to learn to navigate through ribbons, it actually becomes quite comfortable.  I perswonally find Ribbons a rather neat concept, much neater than menus sometimes, but I am speaking from a programmer's viewpoint.


On 30/10/2017 11:22 AM, Gene wrote:

You don't know that I love the ribbons.  I don't care if a program uses menus or ribbons.  I simply try to convince people to try to understand ribbons because much or most of the dislike of ribbons is based on inadequate or improper instruction or insufficient learning about them. 
 
You seem to have an antiMicrosoft bias and I'm not sure what you are commenting on in my last message on the subject.  Edge is using a very different design.  firefox is significantly changing its design as well.  Why are you singling out Microsoft?  Microsoft is not perfect when it comes to accessibility.  But they are much better than a lot of companies.  All you have to do is consider all the complaining about inaccessible or not properly accessible antimalware programs to get an idea of this. 
 
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 9:00 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Using The Edge Browser

And MS. still can't get it right.
I'm not sure if you could explain when moving messages to a folder, use to be alt "M" now it's "V"
I know you love the ribbons but unfortunately even jaws had to put a patch or to removing it.
I'm not sure what the logic is any more.
I guess that is the way of the world now.
 
 
 
 
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SKYPE: goldenace4
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Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 
 


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 10:54 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Using The Edge Browser

I would suggest not jumping to what seem like obvious conclusions.  the Edge browser is nothing like the old browsers in terms of how information is presented to screen-readers or how screen-readers extract information.  I don't know if anything could have been done more quickly in terms of achieving accessibility but Microsoft was far ahead in accessibility than Apple for over a decade. 
 
Apple gets all sorts of credit but it did what it did mostly out of necessity.  they were facing the prospect of losing a lot of educational school contracts because there products weren't accessible.  Long before that, Microsoft was doing serious work on accessibility. 
 
\Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 11:39 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Using The Edge Browser

the MS. programs are a joke.
They wait until the  screen readers catch up to technology, and
then decide to make things as sighted friendly they can.
I'm not sure how Apple can produce accessibility and MS. is still
trying.
Did they have a beta tester on the team who used NVDA with Edge?
I'm OK, using old programs because I don't have the desire to
keep trying to stay up there with the latest and best.
 good luck!


 
EMAIL:karim.lakhani@...
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SKYPE: goldenace4
$$$$
Your reputation is in the hands of others. That's what a
reputation is. You can't control that. The only thing you
can control is your character.
- Wayne Walter Dyer (1940-)
 
 

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf
Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 2:16 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Using The Edge Browser

Another case of reinventing a wheel that works for one based on
non rolling wheels. Baby and bathwater proverbs come to mind.
 Brian

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Please address personal email to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Joseph Lee" <joseph.lee22590@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Sunday, October 29, 2017 5:17 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA and Using The Edge Browser


Hi,
There is no menu bar in Edge. I know, for many of you, this is a
shocker, as
many of you are used to such things on web browsers. In reality,
there is a
"menu bar", but it is housed in a menu (quite similar to Google
Chrome). To
get there, press Alt+X.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf
Of Ron
Canazzi
Sent: Saturday, October 28, 2017 10:06 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: [nvda] NVDA and Using The Edge Browser

Hi Group,


I normally use Firefox for my default browser.  Because of the
discussion
about Edge, I tried it and it seems to have some promise. Someone
just sent
a bunch of shortcut keys on this list and many are the same as in
Firefox.
I do have a few questions.


The biggest question is: are there any menus where in you can
customize Edge
such as there are in Firefox, Chrome and Internet Explorer?  I
did see the
one shortcut alt + S that is supposed to open the settings
window.  I tried
this and nothing happened.  Is there some setting that I must
change to get
menus to work?


Thanks in advance for any help.


--
They Ask Me If I'm Happy; I say Yes.
They ask: "How Happy are You?"
I Say: "I'm as happy as a stow away chimpanzee on a banana boat!"













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