Re: Firefox 57 etc


I agree, and sometimes updaters lie through their teeth.

I updated my aunt's hp ay laptop 2 weeks back to win10.

The support software told me that at the current time I had updated drivers and everything was ready.

I got it updated and working, but shortly afterward, unless connected to my desk fan, the system would not start at all and when it started normally it beeped and gave an error though it did run the os.

The screen was also really bright.

I then got sighted help and was told the display driver was not loading, then I reinstalled that.

Checking the support program found updates to wmi and display.

Since the support app is so slow downloading anything I always get the right info from the app and go online.

To my utter shock, there were updates to the display and wmi engine, bios, hard drive, and 99.9% of all internal components but the support app only notified me of 2 of the 30 or so that should have been on the update list to do.

They included the system startup program for windows.

I updated all these and the system then started normally without issue.

It took me 3 hours of work to get all the updates installed so yeah they can jump on you quickly and sometimes you need to put things in manually to get the result..

On 7/11/2017 10:10 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:
There are updates, and there are updates, so to speak, by which I mean that for example windows does small updates each month and mostly they have no issues, but if you completely update a package, for example like Revo uninstaller did and make it no  use to us then these are to be avoided. the crucial thing is to get advised of any updates and decide on what you find.
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----- Original Message ----- From: "zahra" <>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, November 07, 2017 6:02 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc

hi gene again.
i followed and realized that in many versions
have security fixes for maintenance service.
as i also realy hate update, the first thing that i do is turning off
any update of any softwares that i use!

On 11/6/17, Tony Ballou <> wrote:
Hi Rose Marie,

I wouldn't worry about this. It's something that I've also never heard of.


On 11/6/2017 11:28 AM, Rosemarie Chavarria wrote:
Gee--how come the rest of us haven't heard of this so-called bug?

On 11/6/2017 2:31 AM, zahra wrote:
i read maintenance service has many bugs and problems.
i never install it, i choose custom installation and unchecke its
i never update my firefox and so, set it to never update and also
changed many uptions in about:config to be sure anythings never be
updated for me!
maintenance service is just for updating firefox without users
interaction and silently updates firefox without any notification!

On 11/6/17, Gene <> wrote:
All the update options are obvious. There is an automatically update
option, an option to notify you when an update is available and an
option to
never update. I don't know if you are saying not all the update
options are
obviouls or not all the options available in the entire options
dialog are

If somene doesn't know how or has problems finding the update
settings, how
to find them can be explained and once explained, it shouldn't be
to find them. But remopving the actual service itself is a really


From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2017 3:53 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc

That is a bit of a sledgehammer way. You can set it in the options, but
quite what all the choices do is not instantly obvious, except the
one to
say never update of course!
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----- Original Message -----
From: "zahra" <>
To: <>
Sent: Monday, November 06, 2017 6:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc

just delete maintainance service in your control panel, i mean
uninstall it and go to options, advance, update and set your desires.

On 11/6/17, Sharni-Lee Ward <> wrote:
How can I make sure Firefox won't update? I don't want my go-to
to be unusable!

On 6/11/2017 10:17 AM, Stephen wrote:
I thought that was why there were beta versions before the main
release, to get these issues ironed out in the first place?
At 07:47 PM 11/5/2017, you wrote:
Well how does one actually get it to work then, I cannot get to
anything I can read in order to check if the option is set
wrongly, I
was under the impression that it was supposed to be off by default.
this has not been my experience, either that or there are more
serious issues on the 32 bit version or it has problems in
windows 7.
No My thrust and that of several others I know is that it has been
sprung on people. IE if there was a version of firefox that by
default could not be used by the sighted it would never leave the
My point is that I'm sick and tired of being a second class citizen
simply because I'm blind, and its about time these people got their
fingers out of their ears or wherever they put them, not wanting to
be rude and embraced accessibility at the start of a new concept not
half way through it.
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----- Original Message ----- From: "John Isige" <>
To: <>
Sent: Sunday, November 05, 2017 5:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc

My apologies, I misunderstood your rhetoric comment. That's what
of trying to do two things at once. Also to be clear, I'm not
saying we
shouldn't question changes. I think it's fine and valuable to ask
changes are being made and why they're being made. But there are
people who seem to assume they're almost always bad and are the
down a path for changes for the worst, it seems to me, and that's
object to. As you say, and a few others have reported this here as
the new Firefox with the option set correctly seems to be mostly
if slow. And if not, as you've also pointed out, we have other
to use until it gets straightened out.

I also think it's valuable to point out that these aren't ham-fisted
sledgehammer changes, they are perhaps fairly large changes sure,
they're not being done just because, they're being done for a
valid security reason. I figured I'd better provide examples
instead of
just telling people it's an issue, now we can all see the potential
problems with code injection. I should add, I'm really glad the new
update is mostly fine, though I might use the extended release
use Firefox as my daily browser and haven't really found any of the
others to my liking for various reasons, though I need to play with
some more because of course accessibility keeps improving for them.

Man I remember the days of IE 6 or 7 when JFW's Firefox support
that great, and IE updated and JFW hadn't caught up yet. Called tech
support and they insisted I couldn't be running the new version
of IE
because the new version of IE didn't work with JFW. At least
we've got
some pretty decent alternatives nowadays. I'm not even sure if
was supported yet, it was ages ago when this happened, but I
remember I
had all kinds of issues browsing until it got updated eventually.
that line will stick in my head forever, "you can't be running
I'm like "dude it's right here on my machine"! I think I even
speech up over the speakers and made it read the version number. Fun

On 11/4/2017 23:45, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi John,

Boy, you really like to press home a point. I didn't fundamentally
disagree with you on any of that. In fact, according to beta
Firefox 57 without the check box checked isn't very much different
than earlier versions. In addition, I have begun to use Edge for
things. The only major issue I see with Edge and NVDA is it is a
erratic in forms mode. For example on the Send Space page where you
have to click on buttons and make descriptive editions if desired,
NVDA keeps slipping in and out of forms mode. I bet they nail
this one
down either later this year or early next year. I can use Edge for
anything now including forms and similar editable pages--with some

I only objected to your wholesale condemnation of all blind
people who
raised questions about changes in accessibility.

On 11/4/2017 9:57 PM, John Isige wrote:
Ah. Rhetoric. Like this.

And this:

The reason you're not hacked any more than other people is because
Firefox updates for security, i.e. the very thing people are
about now because it's updating in a way that happens to mess with
screen readers. It's true that, so far as I know, neither of these
injection attacks are the kind of code injection screen readers
That's because screen readers are local though and not using
like JavaScript, but that's about the only difference. And you
particularly note from the second link that the particular code
injection attack being discussed there allows reading and
writing of
local files as well as uploading them. Have a credit card number
down somewhere for easy access? Get infected by that thing and it
very well be uploaded to a site for somebody else to try and use.

My point is, injection attacks happen, they're bad, and this is
way to try and stop them. There's a real purpose to this change,
or not anybody happens to like or agree with it. It's not just
there are real examples of it, as I've just demonstrated. There's
also a
way for screen readers to deal with browsers that doesn't involve
injection, I believe this is how NVDA deals with Microsoft Edge
Edge doesn't allow code injection. That's also part of why
still working on Edge accessibility, sure, that way doesn't
overnight, it has to be implemented and I'm sure issues have to be
worked out with it, e.g. if a browser needs to expose certain
things it
doesn't currently.

I get that the change Firefox is making isn't ideal for us, I'm
saying, there's a reason for it, and there are a lot of
alternatives to
using the new Firefox, including an older accessible version of
if you don't feel like trying to change browsers and use Chrome or
until better accessibility for the new version of Firefox is
There's no reason to assume that the sky is falling and that
will ever get better because clearly, Firefox is going down the
road of
hating blind people and ignoring them entirely and thus we're all

On 11/4/2017 19:13, Ron Canazzi wrote:
Hi John,

Besides all that rhetoric, Mozilla has set the 'disable all
accessibility features' item to unchecked by default. As long
as you
don't turn it on by accident, there shouldn't be any problem. I
know what the chance of you getting infected or hacked by
something is
when this item is turned off, but I would imagine it isn't
very high
because I don't see any greater number of blind people getting
proportionately than sighted folks. Still there is an issue with
security now of days and it probably won't get any better for
Some people have already tested 57 with screen readers and were
careful not to check the box and things seem reasonably good.

On 11/4/2017 6:08 PM, John Isige wrote:
If you'd read all of the stuff in Freedom Scientific's post, you
have seen this link.

Code injection is a horrible idea from a security standpoint and
also a
coding one. It was something that was necessary back in the day,
probably isn't anymore. So that was a change that probably
happened long before now anyway. It makes sense as a change and
it was
going to cause this issue whenever it happened. Not only do
we have
several accessible browsers to choose from, we have an
version of the one with the problem and one assumes work will be
done to
make the current version accessible. Seriously, do you people do
anything other than bitch about stuff? I'm beginning to
wonder. I
that the transition is annoying, sure. but some times there are
good reasons to change things, however annoying the transition
to be, and honestly, this one isn't all that bad in the grand
scheme of

On 11/4/2017 4:14, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Indeed, However I am critical of Mozillas handling of this. Its
often that the makers of Jaws put up a page about the
pitfalls and
also criticise a particular company for being unthinking about
policy toward the VI community.

Let us hope that somebody in the management at that
us more seriously, however I'm not holding my breath, and
I'm not
if jamie working for them will help much if the culture is
the road toward making all software inaccessible to stop
hacking. He
is probably not the most tactful person in the world as indeed
am I. I can now afford to grow old disgracefully. Age has its
advantages as history does tend to repeat itself and we have
here before, sadly.
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----- Original Message ----- From: "никиÑ,а Ñ,аÑ?аÑ
To: <>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 6:41 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc

Hello. I don't think it's worth installing Mozila 57 until
available to NVDA.
ÐzÑ,пÑ?авлено из ÐYоÑ?Ñ,Ñ< Ð´Ð»Ñ Windows 10

ÐzÑ,: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
ÐzÑ,пÑ?авлено: 3 Ð½Ð¾Ñ Ð±Ñ?Ñ 2017 г. в 21:17
Тема: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc

Yes I saw a message on the issues list from James, about some
version 58, so maybe it will get resolved from the currently
Its new users of any screenreader I feel sorry for, especially
its a
shared machine and the sighted member just lets firefox update.
There are a couple of other issues. It disabled both my add
navigational sounds and Ublock Origin ad blocker and even
when I
version 52 back on I had to re download both add ons and
Not only that but nvda after the update could not read the
screen of
the add
ons manager, I had to exit firefox completely and go back in
again to
if they had installed correctly, I'm sure this was not the case
to up
and down dating the version I had, which was 55. How also
does one
52 to
get security updates without letting it update to 57 as I
see it
to do
till I set updates to no, ie not recommended.
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----- Original Message ----- From: "Robert Mendoza"
To: <>
Sent: Friday, November 03, 2017 10:31 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Firefox 57 etc

Hi, Brian

I have the same issue on the other machine, and that is the
why I
keep to shift instead to use the Firefox ESR version 52 but
now I
stick to this version because there is likely more stable in
and never has a problem. And, once the issue has fix maybe I
could go
to use and test it again.

Robert Mendoza

On 11/3/2017 6:00 PM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
With regard to this version of Firefox, and in addition to
posted about it. Here is what me acting as the average
After installation only the menus work, no content on the
readable, you cannot go into any browse or focus mode. You
Now there may well be some kind of setting that can be
I do
know, to achieve what he got, slow but functioning. I
could not
option for this. Not only that but it seemed to lose
almost half
of my
bookmarks as well.

So unless they fix this on the release version anyone trying
to use
Firefox 57 when it comes out with the latest version of nvda,
and I
am up
to date with the master branch here, will not be able to
do so
they know how to make it work.
If these people are employees then they will probably need
of an admin to reinstall a version like 55, and turn off auto
updates. I
have reinstalled 52 in actual fact and got my bookmarks
back as
well as
functionality. To my mind the makers of Firefox at the
state of
play should be able to see if screenreading software is on a
in a
similar way to Adobe reader or Jarte does, and prevent it
to an unworkable version.
I cannot understand why they have not done this.

Anyone care to comment?
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