Re: NVDA in the workforce and in public institutions


erik burggraaf <erik@...>
 

Hi Steve, I have not experienced any issues using word tables in pages. My Mac died before I could get into Microsoft Office 2016. Anyhow, thank you very much for making my point for me again. In fact, voice-over renders tables flawlessly and has excellent features for doing so. It handles tables in almost any format.  It has configurable row and column header verbosity. It performs extremely well in tables using Safari, Chrome, and Firefox. Again, I can't speak for Microsoft Office, but it performs extremely well in tables using I work sweet. In other words, even if we dissected this one feature, and say that voice over crashes when reading a table, we go back to the Paradigm and recognize that numerous third-party applications and formats that render tables work very well with voice over without crashing. Ergo, if a table is crashing, it is the fault of the person who designed the table, or the format in which the table is rendered. That person or persons needs to go back, and fix their table. Or update their format so that it works with the accessibility api's on the Mac. This is not a voice-over issue.

Voice over and here's fairly rigorously to both International standards, and its own accessibility api's. It's actual screen reader features do primarily what they were designed to do, perform up to standard, and offer a professional level of access.

Here is a better example. Voice-over has a feature called Place markers or some such, which allows someone to configure hot spots on the screen, navigate to them, and read what is in those hot spots with a moving. This is an extremely useful screen reader feature. Many screen readers have a similar feature on Windows. Unfortunately, this feature was broken in an upgrade, and remained inoperable for an entire operating system version. In the course of the next operating system release, about 18 months, the issue that broke Place markers was eventually fixed. Of course, we do not think this is an acceptable turnaround time for fixing such a useful feature that had become relied upon by many screen reader users. Still, we have waited longer for Less productivity in other feature areas.

How long has Adobe waffled on accessibility support? Modern Adobe software for IOS and Android has been available for 5 years at least, and still is not accessible. They released some Bare Bones support last year. Hooray for a while, and where are they now? Gone again. Adobe still wants to do accessibility the way they did it 20 years ago, but nobody does that anymore.

I say again, and we'll keep saying, the tools, standards, laws, and api's, are all in place for developers to make their software accessible. In the new paradigm, it is the developer's responsibility to use the tool standards laws and everything else to make their programs accessible. It is not the responsibility of a screen reader manufacturer to make programs accessible. It is the responsibility of a screen reader manufacturer to develop tools that present information effectively using the api's and standard so that a person can read the screen. Nvda as a screen reader works extremely well as a screen reader, and has professional screen reader features and functions. If Microsoft's user-interface automation accessibility tool is broken, then it is Microsoft responsibility to fix that tool. Microsoft Outlook doesn't interface properly with user interface automation, then it is Microsoft's responsibility to fix that accessibility issue. If the same thing happens to file browsing on lower-end systems, it is Microsoft's responsibility to make sure that the primary system tools being used in windows are accessible and perform effectively when accessibility services are enabled. It is not the responsibility of a screen reader manufacturer to fix stability and performance issues in every software package released and accepted by the blind Community, particularly those that come directly built into the operating system.

As a recognized access technology specialist in your own right, I strongly suggest you go back to the drawing board, reevaluate the old and new paradigms, and completely reassess your expectations of what a screen reader is and does, and what the responsibilities of various developers are. In the new paradigm, we have very few tools such as scripts, addons, and other Specialty Products that help us both accessibility on two things where accessibility is lacking. We expect developers and manufacturers to accept responsibility for the accessibility of their products, just as they would for the security, stability, performance, and feature sets. We no longer look to a screen reader or a screen reader manufacturer to solve all the problems of the world. We hold people accountable for their own designs and their own products. The laws, standards, and tools, allow us to do this. We do not want a return to the days when everything had to be scripted, but we still have a long way to go to get to a point where accessibility is the norm. It will take determination, persistence, and a unified front, to build on the groundwork that has already been laid.

Best,

Erik

On November 11, 2017 10:22:02 AM "Steve Nutt" <steve@...> wrote:

Hi,

 

In other operating systems screen readers just work?  Where did you get that from.  Voiceover crashes just by opening a Word table, so don’t get me started on that one.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of erik burggraaf
Sent: 10 November 2017 19:00
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in the workforce and in public institutions

 

Well and good, except that they never fix anything in days... ever.  The turnaround time is months, sometimes years.  Paying a lot of money is no guarantee what-so-ever of results.

In this case, both screen readers have the similar issue as I understand it.  FS was able to bolt something on to make it work.  NVDA hasn't taken steps yet.  But if the stability issue were corrected in the program itself, in this case outlook, then there would be no need for individual screen readers to bolt on solutions, and that's the issue I have with the whole mess.

In every other computer platform known to man, screen readers simply work and developers conform, or they don't.  In windows, we still think it's OK, even best case, to pay huge money, and double or tripple or quadroople up on work to get things done instead of making developers do the right thing.  We call this increased independence, but I call it quantity over quality.

Best,

Erik

On November 10, 2017 12:31:53 PM "Tyler Wood" <tcwood12@...> wrote:

You wrote:

At least with nvda, you have recourse to address issues if you want to. You can create and promote a support ticket, donate to support development, pay a developer of your choosing to examine your issue and make improvements, p or perform the work yourself if you have the skills and submit it to the community. Unfortunate as it may be to have something not work the way you want it right now, you would have none of this recourse available to you if the similar thing were happening in the paid commercial product.

 

That’s because the commercial product would fix it in double time and is why it would make itself worth that insane price.

In the workplace, if my screen reader crashed for mission critical things and, to be honest, simple things like outlook, with new versions of NVDA only being released every 90 days if even that, is that something I can live with? Whereas jaws may have it fixed in a number of days because they have the financial resources. something to think about.

 

Just my thoughts.

 

 

 

From: erik burggraaf
Sent: November 10, 2017 11:17 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in the workforce and in public institutions

 

On the other hand, nvda was the first to support Microsoft Edge. Nvda has introduced substantial new features and support for modern programs before Jaws or other screen readers in the market. It's unfortunate that outlook support isn't where it needs to be yet, but I don't think that's indicative that the product is not ready for professional use.

This gets back to that terrible situation of people advocating for use of multiple screen readers.  It's an astonishingly terrible practice, but how can you blame people if they have the resources?  The fact that multiple screen readers are better at different things, is a sign of poor design, and fragmentation of the accessibility process.  In the new paradigm, developers should be forced to adhere to accessibility standards, so that screen readers who that conform to accessibility standards have everything they need to interface with programs and systems excessively. The fact that things are still so fragmented is bad for us in the long run.

At least with nvda, you have recourse to address issues if you want to. You can create and promote a support ticket, donate to support development, pay a developer of your choosing to examine your issue and make improvements, p or perform the work yourself if you have the skills and submit it to the community. Unfortunate as it may be to have something not work the way you want it right now, you would have none of this recourse available to you if the similar thing were happening in the paid commercial product.

On November 10, 2017 10:47:51 AM "Steve Nutt" <steve@...> wrote:

Hi Tyler,

 

You hit another nail there, usability.  Currently, NVDA crashes all over the place in outlook 2016, I can’t even use it.

 

If I had to rely on it for my daily bread, the fix is a long time coming.  Whereas, in JAWS 2018, they have fixed it already.

 

So to some extent, you do get what you pay for.  The fixing of MS Outlook is obviously not a high enough priority with NVDA to push out a quick update.

 

All the best

 

Steve

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tyler Wood
Sent: 09 November 2017 08:42
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in the workforce and in public institutions

 

Hi,

My workplace provided me with jaws.

Open source is nice, things get fixed, yes, but companies, especially government companies, want things that simply work and are well known and reliable. Also probably have an ongoing license with jaws, so why not use it?

Me personally, if I had a job requiring jaws, $125 every 2 years is hardly a drop in the bucket especially considering if the company pays for the license itself. Also for me, NVDA wasn’t usable in most of the cataloguing programs I worked in whereas jaws was. This was a few years back now, though, so things might change.

 

 

From: Shaun Everiss
Sent: November 9, 2017 2:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in the workforce and in public institutions

 

Sadly this is the curse as much as it is a blessing with opensource.

 

Look at blind extra, there is probably nothing to stop people modifying

nvda with a virus and releasing it as something else and tricking users.

 

I know we have a good security review of addons, but  what are ways we

can protect nvda if any from this.

 

Governments and such probably have a contract with vfo and need jaws

jaws or nothing.

 

I couldn't load anything bar jaws at university.

 

They simply wouldn't accept anything bar jaws.

 

On the other hand, if your work wants you to use jaws they should foot

the bill for it, and all upgrades, and smas, and if you suddenly have an

system upgrade and need to buy the same functionality again, then let

them pay the 600000 or so bucks for the privilage.

 

Not the users issue.

 

If they want to use a company with bad support, you just say I am not

paying for it, you pay or I just won't bother.

 

Users can not afford a lot of the access tech because governments and

organisations are paying for licences.

 

Dolphin stuff is affordable to some extent the rest naaah.

 

 

 

 

On 9/11/2017 7:52 p.m., Mike and Jenna wrote:

> Hi,

> I have to chime in here. My wife works for the government and they will not allow NVDA either. They said they do not allow anything on their systems ware you can get the code for it online because it forms a security risk for their systems. I love NVDA but can see due to the response form her IT department a hard line against letting NVDA into many government uses.

> -----Original Message-----

> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Joseph Lee

> Sent: Thursday, November 9, 2017 1:15 AM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in the workforce and in public institutions

> Hi Sky,

> I'm sure Quentin will weigh on this more, but when you meet this person next month, can you ask him the following questions:

> * Please define "security".

> * So it was claimed that closed source products are more secure. There are tons of examples where open-source software might offer equal or better security, not because of openness of code, but due to potential to fix issues early on through contributions. What's your opinion on that?

> * Until a few years ago, using NVDA in professional setting was only a dream, but we're getting to a point where more organizations are choosing to use NVDA, and there are international examples out there. Do you have any comments on that?

> * So Window-Eyes was chosen due to "perceived improved security due to close-source nature of the program". What is more secure in 2017: unsupported program that people cannot offer quality security fixes on a timely manner, or an open-source product that does have community backing, including looking out for security problems?

> In case this person asks who and why these questions are asked, please tell him that a reputable NVDA developer asks these questions, and this developer is asking tough questions to get this person to think critically. If he asks, "why should I care or think critically", please tell him that thinking critically allows one to make better choices in the end, including policy decisions (yes, that's my debator side coming out). In the end, it would be much better (strategically) if you frame these questions as though you are asking them, because it also allows you to think carefully about what you are dealing with.

> Cheers,

> Joseph

> -----Original Message-----

> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sky Mundell

> Sent: Wednesday, November 8, 2017 10:04 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in the workforce and in public institutions

> Hello. Let me check with him next month, and I'll get back to you on this subject.

> -----Original Message-----

> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bhavya shah

> Sent: Wednesday, November 08, 2017 10:02 PM

> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

> Subject: Re: [nvda] NVDA in the workforce and in public institutions

> Hi Sky,

> Before we debate the security of NVDA, I think we need to get the case of the library representative clarified. Firstly, what are the bases of this assertion that NVDA is less secure? Secondly, assuming that the claimant has the requisite technical knowhow, has he perused NVDA's source code to substantiate this claim? Thirdly, are there any specific security vulnerabilities or exploits present in NVDA that he can point us to?

> Unless the library representative can provide cogent responses to the above questions, or strengthen his claim by concrete evidence, I would dismiss such a comment as a misinformed and groundless one which holds no water.

> Thanks.

> On 11/9/17, Sky Mundell <skyt@...> wrote:

>> Hello All. Today, I was at our monthly technology meeting at a public

>> library here in Victoria, British Columbia, and NVDA was one of the

>> screen reading options discussed to a new participant who had low

>> vision. However, the tech at the library looked at it, and he told the

>> group that it was less secure, and they commented that it was better

>> for home use, rather than in corporate environments. Would NV Access

>> staffers like to comment on this issue, and what can be done to

>> address this issue? Because they were going to settle on the

>> Window-Eyes for office option back when it was being updated, but as

>> we all know it got discontinued and they did look at Window-Eyes as an

>> option and they were more in favour of it due to it not being Open

>> Source. They also did have JAWS for a time but got rid of it due to

>> lack of training and they would have had to spend money to get

>> somebody from FS to train them on it.  Any suggestions you guys could give me would be greatly appreciated! Thanks, Sky.

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

>> 

> --

> Best Regards

> Bhavya Shah

> Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons: https://bhavyashah125.wordpress.com/

> Contacting Me

> E-mail Address: bhavya.shah125@... Follow me on Twitter @BhavyaShah125 or www.twitter.com/BhavyaShah125 Mobile Number: +91 7506221750

>

 

 

 

 

 

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