Re: need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA


Gene
 

This is a long message but I consider it important to answer such objections fully with the unending amount of negative comments and fear and dislike of ribbons.  People need encouragement, not discouragement to try ribbons with an oepned mind.  Unfortunately, most of what you hear almost everywhere is negative and my tutorial, which I sent recently to the list and which I'll send again in a separate message, demonstrates that if people are taught ribbons properly, most people will not fined ribbons to be the horror people portray them as.
 
The ribbons have categories such as respond in Windows Live Mail, for example.  You can move from category to category in a ribbon with control right arrow to move forward and control left arrow to move backward.  If you are looking for something, listening to the category titles as you move around the ribbon should tell you where it will likely be.  Where is forward likely to be?  In the respond category.  If ribbons were widely used, you would be accustomed to this system of organization.  it's just as logical as menus.  And ribbon programs have one menu which it is a good idea to look through very early in learning the program. 
 
You say menus are more intuitive than ribbons.  Then why is options in the tools menu?  Options aren't tools.  Tools are things you use to perform certain kinds of actions in programs.  Options are settings.  They may be preferences, but they are settings.  Why isn't options a submenu in settings?  But because you started using menus first and have used them for a long time, you consider such things to be intuitive.  Why do some programs have a settings submenu in the edit menu?  They have nothing to do with each other.  Again, it's what you are used to.  Why is compacting an e-mail data base in the file menu and not in the tools menu in Outlook Express?  %It's more a tool than file management, in my opinion, but you are used to it being there. 
 
There are slight disadvantages to ribbons from a blind user's perspective.  You don't hear things like control plus letter commands when looking around a ribbon.  For example, when in the respond category, if you hear reply, you don't hear control r announced, but control r is still available as a command.  That is a significant disadvantage and it could be and should be corrected.  But that is the fault of the designers and not inherent to ribbons.  It's the way ribbons are implemented.  The other minor disadvantage is that letter sequences are usually a bit longer if you use letter sequences to invoke a command.  For example, a ribbon sequence may be alt h f I a whereas a menu shortcut may be alt f r.  That's a minor inconvenience.
 
And, dislike ribbons or not, there may be a hint that designers of programs may be moving toward ribbon-like designs but not using ribbons themselves.  Look at the options dialog in the new Firefox.  It is designed in the same way a ribbon is, with faar fewer options to up and down arrow through in the list and far more items in the list you select to tab through.  And as you tab, you hear categories announced, because items are organized in those categories just as they are in ribbons.  And you hear categories announced as you tab around, just as in ribbons.  Is this a trend or just an isolated design aedoption?  I don't know but if you know about ribbons, the similarity is obvious and you know, by a bit of experimenting that the same commands to move by categories should be implemented by the designers as is used in ribbons, that is, control right and control left arrows.  It hasn't been implemented yet but those who want it to be implemented may wish to let the designers know.  And again, I wouldn't have even thought about this if I didn't know ribbons so knowing ribbons may help improve designs for everyone when ribbons aren't being used. 
 
Gene

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 4:04 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA

Yes I too find the  ribbon not very  easy to use at all. Its not intuitive.
Everything may still be there and yes you can use keyboard shortcuts, but
when as often occurs you need to find some option you have no idea where it
might be, whereas in the classic menu its going to be in a common place and
its easy to swap places very very quickly, in ribbons its not that easy, its
a bit like a railway, where all the branch lines have branch lines but you
cannot see which branch is the one with your station on it and to get to
your station you need to go all the way back to your starting point to try
again.
 Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal email to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "zahra" <nasrinkhaksar3@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Monday, November 20, 2017 9:51 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA


hello gene and gene nz.
i myself, dont have problem for learning ribbons, but i realy hate use
ribbons and prefer classic menu.
everyone has different taiste and different favor.
many people like ribbons, many like classic menu.
many like interface of windows xp or seven like me and many want to be
upto date and experience new things.
for people like me who want classic and traditional technology, there
are some programs like ribbon disabler in newer windows and also one
program that i found called classic menu for office which is
commercial.
i believe that microsoft should consider our need and interest and
provide the way for lovers of classic technology and does not fource
us to accept the changes!
can you please send me your tutorial off list?
i am afraid losing emails between thousands of emails.
God bless you and his infinite mercy i pray for you.

On 11/20/17, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
> Anyone can distribute or display the tutorial.
>
> If you want to label sections, that's fine.
>
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
>
> From: Gene New Zealand
> Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 7:18 PM
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA
>
>
> Hi Gene
>
>
>
>
> I was just reading the emails on this topic. If you allow me i can paste
> your tutorial up on Accessibilitycentral.net so others in the community
> can
> access it at any time to learn how to use them. it can go on a separate
> page
> and have the headings called split buttons and how to use ribbons with
> nvda.
> it will probably be along the same lines unless you want to give those
> sections a title each. the page it will most probably come off is nvda
> tutorials for other programs page just under the Microsoft word tutorial.
>
>
>
>
> I was thinking along the lines of maybe doing a audio tutorial on using
> them
> which i can add to that page for other programs page. It would be a day or
> so before it goes up there.
>
>
>
>
> That would be your written one.
>
>
>
>
> I think i might have some thing written on the windows 10 page but am
> thinking of removing it any how.
>
>
>
>
> I will put the tutorial is written by ..... unless you want it left off.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Gene nz
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 11/20/2017 10:25 AM, Gene wrote:
>
>   That is a different Gene.  I don't know if he put the tutorial I did on
> his site.  I don't restrict use of it in any way so it may be there.
> Also,
> I send it in e-mail messages and I never thought of giving it a title.  I
> just paste it into the message and send it where people want it.  So if
> people have placed it on web sites, I don't know what they may call it.
>
>   I'll send it in a following message.
>
>   Gene
>   ----- Original Message -----
>   Gene
>   ----- Original Message -----
>
>   From: Mary Otten
>   Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 3:17 PM
>   To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>   Subject: Re: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA
>
>
>   Hi Jean,
>   Wasn’t that tutorial on your Accessibility central website? I actually
> went looking for yesterday, maybe I wasn’t in the right section, but I
> didn’t find it.
>   Mary
>
>
>
>
>   Sent from my iPhone
>
>   On Nov 19, 2017, at 12:12 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:
>
>
>     I doubt there is such an add on.  I haven't heard of one and a google
> search doesn't show one.  I don't know who you need it for or what
> teaching
> resources are available to the person in question but I would strongly
> recommend learning real ribbons.  Despite all the gnashing of teeth you
> hear, ribbons are not difficult.  they are just a different way of
> organizing an interface and everything is accessible.  I wrote a tutorial
> on
> ribbons that teaches their use with Wordpad since everyone has Wordpad.
> I'll send it if you are interested.
>
>     I also can find a link to an article that explains why virtual ribbons
> are actually inferior to real ribbons.
>
>     I wanty to make one point clearly.  It may be that there are people
> with
> conceptual disabilities who would have a hard time learning ribbons.  Most
> people shouldn't have particular difficulty and it should be assumed that
> people can learn them until experience shows that they have an
> unreasonable
> amount of difficulty.  If people were taught ribbons correctly, the
> ongoing
> resistance to them would be significantly reduced.
>
>     Gene
>     ----- Original Message -----
>
>     From: abdul muhamin
>     Sent: Sunday, November 19, 2017 1:48 PM
>     To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>     Subject: [nvda] need a virtual ribben addon for NVDA
>
>
>                   Hi guys. As a subject mentions, I need an NVDA addon
> that
> works like virtual ribben menues in jaws, so is there any addon available
> for NVDA? Thanks
>
>
>
>     regards, Abdulmuhamin Yousaf!
>     head of the content department at
>     www.blindHelp.net
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Check out my website for NVDA tutorials and other blindness related
> material
> at http://www.accessibilitycentral.net Regardless of where you are in New
> Zealand if you are near one of the APNK sites you can use a copy of the
> NVDA
> screen reader on one of their computers. To find out which locations (or
> location) is near to you please visit
> http://www.aotearoapeoplesnetwork.org/content/partner-libraries (Aotearoa
> People's Network Kaharoa). To find an NVDA certified expert near you,
> please
> visit the following link https://certification.nvaccess.org/. The
> certification page contains the official list of NVDA certified
> individuals
> from around the world, who have sat and successfully passed the NVDA
> expert
> exam.
>


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