Re: A few comments on recent threads

Mary Otten <motten53@...>

Hi Brian,
If all the new user has is E speak, I suspect that many of those new users will be finding a way to get another voice immediately. I certainly did that. I change voices as soon as NVDA was installed, because I don’t need to listen to something that takes me back 40 years to the beginnings of blind computer use. Thanks, been there done that. And using that voice when you’re doing any kind of a tutorial is in my view a huge mistake, since it is really not understandable for a lot of people. I understand why the folks at in the excess use it. It does have a lot of languages, although I did try the Russian one, just for fun, because I understand Russian rather well. It was awful. I guess a native speaker could deal with it. Anyway, for all you tutorial writers out there, please use something that sounds human or at least is as good as eloquence, which I also don’t like but is much more understandable than E speak.


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On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:56 AM, Sarah k Alawami <marrie12@...> wrote:

I disagree. When I learned how to use a computer almost 17 years ago I wanted to 2 days after words download all voices for jaws. I even installed updates by myself and wanted to update all of my firmware. I was actually quite board at the pace my trainer was forced to go as he needed to prove I could do this that and the other. He could not move on to advanced topics even though I practically memorized the tutorials and manuals for jaws and my embosser and the what ever else I had gotten that year. I do slow down my voices but I do go at a faster pace as someone can always rewind or pause but I don't go so fast that it's overwhelming.. I also try and be bubbly in all of mine as that also helps.

Take care all and have a wonderful Tuesday.

On Nov 21, 2017, at 10:38 AM, Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io <bglists@...> wrote:

I am basically just saying that the new user will not be downloading voices, end of story, not that one should not use them. For example you could have a tutorial explaining how to get a certain voice.

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----- Original Message ----- From: "Gene" <gsasner@...>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 2:27 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads

To avoid any possible confusion, this is Gene from the United States, not Gene from New Zealand, the Gene who hosts a tutorial page. I'm not that tutorial page hosting Gene nor have I created more than a few tutorials related to NVDA.

Tutorials should not limit voices to only what is available in Windows or, to the default NVDA voice. Many voices not universally available are popular and may be as or more understandable than what is universally available. You are ruling out the Windows 10 Microsoft voices, you are ruling out the english version of Eloquence, which is very understandable, I can't comment on other languages. There are lots of other voices being widely used and a new user may find some or many of the more pleasant to listen to and easier to understand than what is universally available. And none of the Microsoft voices, as far as I know, are universally available since different versions of Windows use different default voices. Tutorials are not just for new computer users. They are also for experienced computer users who have used speech for a long time. the new user, in my opinion, doesn't need speech slowed below or not much below the standard speaking rate and for experienced users, slow speech is a real burden to listen to for a lot of users. And a good tutorial presenter repeats a lot of what the speech says just to make sure it is understood, regardless of the person's familiarity or lack of familiarity with synthesized speech. When I do recorded tutorials, I repeat what is important, such as all or most of the items I tab through in a dialog or move through in a menu. I have the speech say something like save as, then I repeat save as. That allows me to use a speech rate that is not torture for experienced listeners to listen to because I repeat everything important so those who are not experienced synthesized speech listeners will have no trouble knowing what is being said.

----- Original Message -----

From: Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 4:04 AM
Subject: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads

1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to date, who
is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is to use
a slowed down voice. As we are talking to people starting out, it takes
time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can hear as fast as
you do. Also the voice should be something understandable and something
available in all flavours of windows with no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about tutorials
in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will need to be
significantly different given the complexity of none Latin based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able to
grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this group. The
best course I think is to simply point people at explanations and files to
maybe try to make them go away wherever you can for those like me who are
obviously thick in this area! Certainly lets not argue about them ad
infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives, at
least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for this too?)
and report your findings there.Although some developers do watch here, they
can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of everyday queries. If
you cannot actually figure out the issues reporting section of Github, and
it can be a bit daunting if you do not use online forms a lot, then
subscribe to one of the lists such as the developers one. These seem to be
all listed with their subscription details on the nv access web site. Then
if you are baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list,
ask somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will not be
as tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to use
nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up portable
version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard shortcut.
This is especially needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a known
good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember, next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that can
trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours. Thos on
the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release but still
contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in messages to the
various lists which are more or less full versions complete with error
sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any reply
to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but most often
this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might be slightly
sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously badly meant, as
flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in email
delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a day, meaning
one has to reply again to take account of new info. This is not uncommon so
don't jump on people unless its clear they are responding to each and every
message in a thread all the time. always read back a bit in the list before
posting a question, as it could well be that its been asked before.this is
evident in the many threads on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or indeed
not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway, just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.

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