Re: A few comments on recent threads

Rayn Darren <rayndarren@...>

HI all,

I've been reading this thread for the past few days specifically regarding voices and speed. If we wish to be fully accessible and comply with all Accessibility Guidelines, we must include transcripts of all spoken materials anyhow. I do understand that doing so is another step and not only can it be time consuming, but some may see it as pointless particularly when doing a tutorial on something such as a new voice, it still needs to be done. After all, the last thing we wish to be accused of is accessibility inequality

As I offered with converting to html and proofreading, I am also willing to do transcripts.


-----Original Message-----
From: [] On Behalf Of Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io
Sent: Wednesday, November 22, 2017 2:48 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads

Of course if you use html you could easily have links to demos in audio, but
as has been said one needs to keep the speech rate slower than you probably
use and also how do you decide on a voice?
I know that sometimes the person giving the presentation can have an accent
that is often hard for some to understand depending on their life
experiences. Joseph is mostly good but now and aain as we all tend to do, he
can gabble a bit and that is when I struggle. I even do this myself when
talking about things I know about and its only when you listen to it later
on that you realise you have done it!

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----- Original Message -----
From: "JM Casey" <crystallogic@...>
To: <>
Sent: Tuesday, November 21, 2017 8:34 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads


Not checked out too many tutorials but I thought I could weigh in.

Yes, wordpad will handle rtfs just fine. But I have to ask: isn't html
all-round the best format for these sorts of things? You can't put links in
a text file, and html is pretty much cross-platform, so as long as someone
has some sort of browser or viewer, they should not only be able to read the
file, but effectively use a table of contents as well.

I don't have much of an opinion on audio. I know a lot of people like them
but personally I would much rather just read something. But yes, I'd think a
well-recorded file, converted to mp3, would be best for most people. You
could keep the bit-rate down pretty low so long as the actual recording was
of a decent quality (minimum ambient noise, etc). Even the rather expensive
training materials from Freedom Scientific, when I reviewed them for my old
work, were full of artifacts and crap that made them irritating to listen
to. I know some people could do better, but, again, I highly prefer a simple
html document containing text.

-----Original Message-----
From: [] On Behalf Of Shaun
Sent: November 21, 2017 3:15 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] A few comments on recent threads

Well for the central location all tutorials unless spacifically meant for
outside viewing and for easy access should be in html, with a text download
in txt extention.

Yes people would have to be added to update their own tutorials I am not
sure how that would work.

As for audios, there would have to be some rules for them.

Language, and voice, the hardware, etc.

I can see audio accompanying a standard tutorial but I wouldn't want an
audio tutorial on its own.

There would have to be rules on what formats were used.

Bunches of tutorials could be zipped I could see links to 7zip, even adobe
for those viewing pdfs.

Over that though pdfs would have to be straight text and not scanned text if

Here is the cludge, not everyone is going to have or want an office program
to view a tutorial, I think wordpad can handle rtf but don't quote me on

So your formats sould be txt and probably html with maybe audio.

In terms of audio, most players can play mp3s.

Not everyone will be able to play ogg and or flack files.

One thing that will have to be stopped immediately is for those that do
tutorials posting them in wav files or if they do someone is going to have
to convert those to mp3 files befor posting them.

Also unless high quality is needed 128-192 kbps files are probably ok, we
don't want people to use lots of their internet especially since we don't
know how stable x person's net could be especially outside standard
developed countries.

I am not sure about language, there is no way everyone could post in every
language and or that sort of thing either.

English would have to be the commen language used I am not sure how
translations of tutorials would be handled I could see you selecting a
language and maybe the tutorials could be translated by those that knew a
language but its tedius if there was a lot of them.

That may be doable if slow.

But what we absolutely don't want is a tutorial written in another language
first posted without an english translation, and it would be better if
tutorials were in english first otherwise that could become a problem.

Then again if the person doing this is not good in english such as it would
have to be edited to make sence if they feel that they are comfortable
writing in their own language and as long as someone can translate into
english and is good at both then thats probably ok.

When I wrote the proposal yesterday on the back of the last drama session I
never fully thought about what I was fully meaning till I read this message,
the poster is right.

Now once set up I do think the resource if kept updated will be a really
good idea but it really needs to be set up properly.

Sadly google translate is not always the best to translate anything into
english unless that is all you want is a general meaning.

On 21/11/2017 11:04 p.m., Brian's Mail list account via Groups.Io wrote:

1. tutorials. Several issues here, where are they, are they up to
date, who is doing them and in what format are they?

I'd suggest if anyone wants to do audio ones the first thing to do is
to use a slowed down voice. As we are talking to people starting out,
it takes time and maybe even never will get to a point where they can
hear as fast as you do. Also the voice should be something
understandable and something available in all flavours of windows with
no additional downloads.
Do not assume anything, and be clear about the intention when you are
demonstrating things.
Of course it gets more complicated if you are also talking about
tutorials in other languages than English, and sometimes the demo will
need to be significantly different given the complexity of none Latin
based languages.
2 Ribbons, the eternal war of words on these has broken out yet again.
To my mind there will always be this problem. Some are simply not able
to grasp the conventions, and I hold my hands up to being in this
group. The best course I think is to simply point people at
explanations and files to maybe try to make them go away wherever you
can for those like me who are obviously thick in this area! Certainly
lets not argue about them ad infinitum every couple of months.

3. Bugs you think you have discovered in nvda.
Firstly ask here, it could be a bug or it could be an issue with the
machine or software on it. Once you have exhausted the alternatives,
at least try to get an account on github. (Is there a tutorial for
this too?) and report your findings there.Although some developers do
watch here, they can miss things just posted here amongst the noise of
everyday queries. If you cannot actually figure out the issues
reporting section of Github, and it can be a bit daunting if you do
not use online forms a lot, then subscribe to one of the lists such as
the developers one. These seem to be all listed with their
subscription details on the nv access web site. Then if you are
baffled by github, and it being a relatively low traffic list, ask
somebody to help you report it there. Do not clutter that list with
questions or crospost the posts here over there though, as they will
not be as tolerant of it as it seems they are here.
Always read up on an issue first if you can.
4. Testing nvda new features. In the main for most who just want to
use nvda, then use the release version, but always have a back up
portable version that you can run in an emergency from a keyboard
This is especially needed if you want to test snapshot builds, and RC
releases, of course as if there are bugs its far easier to reboot to a
known good version and them try to figure out what went wrong!
Remember, next snaps are very much untested ideas, Master are beta
releases and mostly work but occasionally do contain regressions that
can trap the unwary. RC release candidate builds come in two flavours.
Thos on the snapshot pages which are basically the same as the release
but still contain error sounds enabled and those often flagged up in
messages to the various lists which are more or less full versions
complete with error sounds removed.

5. If somebody here annoys you. go and take a walk before writing any
reply to the list. Often the words may sound critical or harsh, but
most often this is because of the lack of human intonation. it might
be slightly sarcastic or just a joke. Best ignored if its obviously
badly meant, as flame wars can occur and nobody wins.
Debate is fine but if you are not willing to listen then don't bother
getting involved.

6. On a personal note, although I do try to read back through the days
messages and make one reply, I am often thwarted by the time warp in
email delivery from mailing lists, which can delay things by up to a
day, meaning one has to reply again to take account of new info. This
is not uncommon so don't jump on people unless its clear they are
responding to each and every message in a thread all the time. always
read back a bit in the list before posting a question, as it could
well be that its been asked before.this is evident in the many threads
on at the moment about Firefox 57, craptum.
grin. I suppose we all make mistakes and do not add to threads or
indeed not change the sub line when the meaning alters.
Anyway, just needed to say some stuff, I'm off for a lie down now.

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