Re: The DOM Debate

Mary Otten <motten53@...>

Well it would sure help if they had standards for all these kinds of buttons and things, like tabs and they identify as links or submenus or whatever. And then the screen readers react differently. It makes things a whole lot more complicated. I don’t care what it looks like, as I almost never get sighted  direction like what you described. But when you run across something as badly label and don’t know how to interact with it, that is a problem. And then there are the sites that work great with one browser, letting  you do a form with ease, while the other screen reader  is horrible and doesn’t read any labels on any edit field. I don’t know why that is, but it is crazy. The cognitive load is getting greater and greater. And I’m not getting any younger. Smile

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 1, 2017, at 12:55 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

Evidently, at least Firefox is moving away from supplying screen-readers information using the DOM.  I don't think Edge uses it nearly as much as screen-readers have in the past either.  Someone who knows a lot more than I do may provide more information.  But even so, browsers will still show screen layout in the same way even if the DOM model is used much less or perhaps not at all.  The DOM model doesn't mandate that the screen be shown in a certain way.  That's formatting.
----- Original Message -----
From: Mary Otten
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 2:42 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Jean, I agree with you for the most part, except that until fairly recently, didn’t  all the screen readers use the Dhom model? I used the Mac for several years, and they have a group model as well as dom, and dom was more efficient as far as I was concerned.  the search feature has proven much less reliable for me now that I’ve moved up to windows 10. I can search for things I know are there and get a no items found. Next time on there I get something. Frustrating. I think these pages are just too damn on needlessly complicated.

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 1, 2017, at 12:19 PM, Gene <gsasner@...> wrote:

And I wonder how much actual training material such as tutorials explains this or does so to any extent.  Unless things have changed, and I havedn't seen much discussion in quite some time, even small changes in a web site causes mass confusion because so many people aren't taught to explore pages.  Just changing the download link to a download button caused a lot of confusion when Send Space made that change.  I hardly noticed it when it happened because I used the screen-reader search feature to find the word "download."  I found the control just as easily and quickly either way.  Actually, the button is faster and easier because now I just type b once from the top of the page to find it.  But to those who learn by rote, even minute changes may lead to an inability to do something on a site.
----- Original Message -----
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 12:35 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,


I have had bad experiences with TVI people.  One of them when asked if she knew the basics of teaching JAWS said: "No, but I and my client will learn it together."  That speaks volumes.

On 12/1/2017 11:07 AM, Gene wrote:
Certainly, for those who want to use programs that are not completely accessible, and that includes most somewhat demanding and more demanding users, those are important things to learn.  But in this case, I think my analysis points to a much deeper problem, the poor Internet instruction a lot of blind people evidently get.  I wonder how much traning material explains things such as I describe.  I don't know but I'm skeptical that it is explained in a lot of material because of the kinds of problems and questions people raise about using the Internet.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 9:42 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

Hi Gene,

Long story short of your analysis: learn to use your screen reader's quick navigation keys and other features.  This allows the reorganization and the advantages of DOM to coexist.

On 12/1/2017 6:44 AM, Gene wrote:
If you know how web pages are actually organized, the contacts problem and other such possible problems can be eliminated very easily.  We, blind people,  see a lot of links moving down from the top of the page.  A sighted person sees these running down the left side of the page in a column. Then we see the main content below the links. A sighted person sees the content toward the middle of the page, moving from left to right on the page.  Then a blind user sees a lot of links in a block at the bottom of the page.  A sighted person sees these links running down the right side of the page in another column, in the same way as the links on the left side are seen.  
So a blind person sees a bloc of links at the top, main content below the links then another block of links at the bottom.  A sighted person sees links running down the left side, main content to the right of those links, and on the right another block of links running down the page in a column. 
So, if you are using a screen-reader with the ridiculous word wrap feature, turn it off if it isn't off.  then do a screen-reader search for the word contact from the top of the page.  Repeat the search to see how many contact links there are.  The one a sighted person describes as being on the right is the one the blind person will see as the second one, if there are only two and no more and there shouldn't be any more.  If there is only one, there is, of course, no problem.  When you get to the last one, if you repeat the search again, you will get an error message.  If you dismiss the error message, you will still be on the link.  You won't lose your place.
You don't have to give up all the advantages of reorganization and usually it is much better to leave reorganization on.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:08 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate

You make some extremely valid points which should be carefully considered, yes. Thanks for your contribution to the thread, and fair enough statements.
Christopher Gilland
Co-founder of Genuine Safe Haven Ministries
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, December 01, 2017 3:58 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] The DOM Debate


I an not using screen layout like in your second example due to following reasons:
- By navigating with down arrow link by link I can decide by myself how fast things are being red since I can decide not to hear the whole link label, but only let‘s say the first half of the word. I don‘t have to wait until the last link on the tab is being announced
- If I want to navigate link by link in screen layout, then I have to press the ctrl key and the right arrow key (applies only for link bars like you have described or for forms with many elements on one line). The problem is that pressing ctrl + right arrow NVDA reads word by word and not link by link or button by button. So I am navigating much slower through the content
- When navigating by ctrl + right arrow through a link bar with 5 links to focus the last one, I don‘t know when the bar ends unless I have listened to NVDA reading the whole bar before
- There is the NVDA addon audiotheme 3d which gives me a screen presentation by playing a short sound in my headfones exactly at the position where the object is located on the screen.


Von meinem iPhone gesendet

Am 01.12.2017 um 09:20 schrieb Christopher-Mark Gilland <clgilland07@...>:

For those who may have a bit of a hearing impairment, let me make it very clear. In my subject, I'm saying DOM, D O M, not balm, b A L M. Although some may call DOM the balm. LOL! And here therefore lies the reason for my post this morning. - I fully realize that this is somewhat a subjective topic, and that everyone will have his or her own opinions on the matter. It is therefore my hope, that you, the reader, have an open and civil mind, and observe this question from all angles before making your response statement on list. I do not want to see this grow to a heated war debate. Anyone who would like to publish this on their website, or wherever is welcome to do so as long as you give credit back to me.

First off, what is DOM?

DOM, Document Object Model, without getting too technical, is one way in which assistive technology such as screen readers obtain information from one's computer screen. When we load a website in our browser of choice, for example, some screen readers use the DOM functionality to draw a representation of the content on the screen.

So, what does this mean to us non-techies?

Put simply, though I am not particularly sure of the exact workflow which occurs behind the scene, what I can tell you is this. Often times, more than not, this approach requires the assistive technology sitting in between the user and the web browser to redraw, as some would say, the entire HTML content in completion. The reason that the word "redraw" is used is because essentially, this is exactly what is happening.
Once a website is loaded, a certain amount of memory is allocated aside where the website in question may be rendered. There are a few advantages to this, however there are also some huge setbacks.

Beauty and the Beast

One of the advantages which probably appears to be fairly obvious from an outsider's perspective is that this will allow assistive technology to use certain methods to gather the web content and then present the material in an easy, robust, and sensably accessible manor. As the writer of this post, let me assure all of you... I definitely see the side of this argument.

Here's a practical example of DOM.

Let's assume, for just a moment, that you have loaded a website in the browser of your preference, be it Firefox, Internet Explorer, Chrome, etc.
On this particular page, there are links which visually appear as horizontal tabs extending across the top of the page. These tabs include the following:
  • Home
  • About Us
  • Blog
  • Shop
  • Support
  • Contact Us
To fully understand how this works, I encourage you to read the following part of this e-mail by using your down arrow key, and reading line by line individually. Here is what you will see. Remember before I go any further with this, all of these links visually appear as one strip of horizontal tabs running across the top of the web page.
Link Home
Link About Us
Link Blog
Link Shop
Link Support
Link Contact Us

Here's another example.

You have a short form on a website. This form asks for your first name, your last name, and your e-mail address. Here's how DOM most likely would reinterpret this. Again, please read this line by line.
Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
First name
Last name
Submit button
Clear form button.

First example without DOM

Read this line by line, and make sure this window with my message is maximized before doing so.
Link home, Link About Us, Link Blog, Link Shopt, Link Support, Link Contact Us.

Second example without DOM

Please fill out the following form so we may keep in touch.
First name Edit
Last name Edit
E-mail Edit, Submit: button, Clear form: Button.

The difference

As you can see in the above four illustrations, the first two examples were rendered in such that each link/form control was on its own line. This is why I asked you to read line by line, as doing a say-all, you never would have most likely caught this. So, in other words, let's make this really easy in plain english.
Refer back to my very first example where we had the tabs which are being represented as hyperlinks. As you recall, I said that they all went horizontally from left to right across the top of the page.
The problem is, DOM renders each element, for lack of better word, as its own separate item. For this reason, each element is on its own dedicated line of text. This is why each link is seeming to appear on its own line by itself. The truth is, these links in all actuality are not on multiple lines. They are actually expanding across the entire marginal width of the screen. Are you starting to see where this could be a potential problem?
The second example is slightly less annoying, however the point still stands in existance.
We have a form. If you've ever seen how a form generally looks on a print sheet of paper, you'll note that most form field labels such as first name, last name, etc. go down the left side of the sheet of paper. Then, horizontally aligned beside these field labels is the data value.
For example, I might have a form printed out which I sign for a Hippa release at my doctor's office. The first field may say, "Name". Out to the immediate right of this will be either a line, or a box. It just depends on how the form is designed, but the over all point is, there will be a second column to the immediate right of where it said, "First name". This is where I would write, "Christopher (Middle name) Gilland. Obviously, some of you may know my middle name, but for privacy sake, I'm not including it here.
Given how the above physical print paper illustration is formatted, as most forms online or not would be, does it really make sense to have the form field, then the data directly below? No. It doesn't.
Look at my above second example without DOM. Notice that the edit box for all three fields is now actually rendering exactly as it would be visually on the screen. The boxes are to the immediate right of the fields, on the same line. Doesn't that just naturally feel better in your mind, and make more sense? It definitely should to most people.
Finally, we have both the submit, and the clear vbuttons.
Does it make sense to you that they'd both be virtically stacked one on top of the other? It certainly doesn't to me! In fact, to me, I'd even go so far as to say it seems absolutely gross! Maybe I am more a visual  learner, but even if I wasn't, this doesn't logically compute. However, this is exactly how DOM is rendering it... One button, and one element per line.

Helping the sighted to guide you

So why is this such a vbig deal? Call me a perfectionist, but let's assume for just a moment that you're on the phone with a customer service representative. They tell you to click the contact us tab located in the upper right corner of the page. This would be a very poor website design, and to any web debvs on here, please for the love of god, take this in consideration! I can't tell you though how many times I've seen this. A web designer will put a contact link at the top of the page which has a form to e-mail them. Further down the page, they have another contact link within the actual main body's content. The difference however is, in this second link, though named identically the same thing, "Contact Us", this second link doesn't direct the visiter to a contact form, but instead gives a phone number, fax number, and possibly a postal address. Totally unacceptable in my view! All this should be consolidated on the one contact page at the top of the screen. This however still proves my point, and like I said, I've seen this more times than I could count, and would gbe rich if I had a dollar for every time I have. OK, so, you now arrow through the page, or do an NVDA find to locate the Contact link. Heck, you might even do NVDA+F7 to bring up your links list. And believe me, though I'm directing this more as an NVDA thing, NVDA isn't the only screen reader which can use the DOM method. JAWS, for example, is incredibly! and I do mean, incredibly! notorious for this. Now, think about this a minute with this really convoluted scanareo regarding the contact link. - How are you going to know which contact link to press enter on to open the contact form, if you're in DOM navigation? Exactly! - You won't. It would be hit and miss.
Now, let's take this same situation without DOM mode.
In this environment, for lack of better word, you would observe both via audible speech, as well as via braille output if you have a display, that the first "Contact us" link is on the far right edge of the screen. You'd know this as you'd see the other links like Home, About us, Blog, etc. on the same line but to the immediate left before it. Does this make sense what I'm saying?

The bottom line

Regardless if you choose to use DOM or not is not something anyone should decide for an individual. If you are coming from a screen reader like JAWS as I have, you definitely may find turning off DOM navigation to be extremely awquard at best. I'd even go as far as to say that it may drive you absolutely crazy at first, and make your web browsing experience seem dreadful. I would however seriously encourage people to at least give it a try for a few days without DOM navigation. Inevitably, if you're not used to it, it's going to take some getting used to, however if you're anything like me, I feel that eventually, you will really start to see the benefits of not using DOM. DOM is great in my opinion, don't get me wrong, but if you want, or need in a mission critical environment to have an exact representation of the content, then fact is fact, you're not going to get it with DOM mode, end of the story, it's just not gonna happen, period. You might as well just accept it. The other thing to also realize is, you are taking up unnecessary memory/processor power to render things differently as an offline model. Granted, OK, it may not be much, but that's not the point. It's still taking up what to some would be considered as unnecessary resources.

What are your thoughts?

Do you use DOM? If not, I'd be interested in your reasons why not.

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