Re: nvda with all addons built in


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Yes agreed. the reason for non github use is its design. End of story.
its a programmers world in there. it needs a new customer front end.


Yes on surveys. I often point out to our council that a yes to something based on a return rate of single figures of survey forms which have been mass distributed is flawed.
What often happens is on implementation all those who did not do the survey start getting vocal about their opposition. its happened here recently with the new sounds scheme as I recall.
It will happen with other things which is exactly why we need not to build in too many add ons directly. If you want to have add ons, then once a system has been configured you can move it all to a ram drive and install it on other computers complete with the add ons in it.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Bhavya shah" <bhavya.shah125@gmail.com>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, December 23, 2017 4:55 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda with all addons built in


Hi all,
In general, it would be unwise to incorporate ‘all’ community add-ons
into core, simply because we want to avoid a situation where NVDA
becomes bloatware, since some of the functionalities that add-ons
provide do not strictly better NVDA’s purpose of screen reading, and
since some applications for which add-ons render improved support and
access may not be used by more users than those that do. However, as
some have stated, this isn’t a an all or none of the above type
situation, but one wherein the feasibility of inclusion of every
individual add-on needs to be dealt with on a case-by-case basis.
* In case of app specific add-ons, we need to predefine a percentage
of users that we consider sufficiently large as being justification
for an add-on dedicated to the same program to be included in core.
Next, we need to devise a means of ascertaining the number of NVDA
users making use of the add-on or that program – via a survey, by
checking add-on download statistics, and assimilating user input from
various sources.
* In case of add-ons providing additional features, we shall need to
assess the relevance and scope of that feature to a screen reading
software. More (or less) importantly though, user feedback and add-on
stats will prove vital in evaluating the popularity of a certain
feature among the user base.
* In case of both the categories of add-ons mentioned above as well as
other distinguishable types of add-ons, the add-on footprint VS
utility ratio will need to be carefully factored in. We want to avoid
integrating and incorporating add-ons which dramatically increase
NVDA’s size since the lightweight and portable nature of NVDA is a USP
that must be retained even if the add-on in question provides
significant value.
Ideally, such messages of interest or disinterest in a particular
feature request, bug report, proposal of inclusion of specific add-ons
in core should be made on GitHub, but since that isn’t unfortunately
actively taking place due to whatever reason, we may want to gather
data in a more organized manner by conducting minimalistic polls and
surveys. Even so, we must be conscious of the number of respondents we
get in such exercises and the proportion they represent in NVDA’s
total recorded user base of 30,000 users.
Thanks.

On 12/23/17, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> wrote:
Hi,

Hmmm…

This is something we should discuss with NV Access (perhaps during NVDACon
2018). One thing I can offer you is take these notes and incorporate them
into my tutorial series, perhaps in the add-ons chapter (January 2018) where
I can emphasize the fact that NVDA is extensible and tell people how to
obtain add-ons.

But more importantly, there will come a time (spoiler alert) when there will
be a version of NVDA without any add-ons (at least temporarily). I’ll talk
about what I just stated in due course (for those who already know, shhh for
now).

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mary
Otten
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 7:39 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda with all addons built in



Hi Joseph,
I think the problem with the approach that you outlined is that it relies on
the end-user to have a good deal of knowledge. Not just for your app but for
others as well. For those of us who view the computer as a means of getting
a job done, this is too much. That is one reason why people continue to use
other screen readers where they hope, for certain price, they have some of
this work done for them. In other words, one shouldn’t have to be a techie
geek kind of person in order to use NVDA. As long as that is required, the
share of NVDA users will be limited.



Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 22, 2017, at 7:26 PM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@gmail.com
<mailto:joseph.lee22590@gmail.com> > wrote:

Hi,

As the author of Windows 10 App Essentials add-on, there are advantages and
drawbacks to including this add-on as part of the NVDA Core. The biggest
advantage is that you get more efficient access to universal apps (not all,
but some), with the biggest difference being Skype universal app and
announcing emojis in emoji panel. The biggest drawback is missing timely
updates, in that Windows 10 changes so rapidly that it is not advisable to
put the entire add-on inside NVDA Core (hence the snapshots and external
update approach). Just today I released a new development snapshot for this
add-on that corrects NVDA’s behavior on latest Windows 10 Insider Preview,
which may or may not work in the next Insider Preview build. In terms of
things that could be incorporated into NVDA Core, I’m looking into bringing
smiles to users of Skype universal app by incorporating my app module into
NVDA Core as soon as possible.

Cheers,

Joseph



From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
[mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mary Otten
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 7:21 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda with all addons built in



One way to look at this is the look at the functionality of the actual
operating system. There is, for example, an add on for windows 10
essentials. That enables you to use and access certain app parts of the
operating system. If you don’t have that, you have a problem. That should be
incorporated into the core functionality of the screen reader ideally. But
if they can’t do that, at least include the add on as a part of the package
you get when you first download the screen reader. Beyond that, if there are
add-ons which speak to the core functionality is that pretty much everybody
uses if they have a computer, browsers, we’re processes, etc., those should
be included. Extras such as Winamp, or

audio processing etc., those are extra. They’re not used by the majority. So
there shouldn’t be included.
Mary

Sent from my iPhone


On Dec 22, 2017, at 5:59 PM, William James <wil@wilanddenise.com
<mailto:wil@wilanddenise.com> > wrote:

Weather add-ons should be included or not is subjective. Everyone learns the
computer in different ways and approaches learning the computer in different
stages. Some people are fast learners and some people are slow. There is no
clear-cut answer on a yes or no question of what should be included. I know
this, because I do this for a living.

Sent from my iPhone 7 Plus


On Dec 22, 2017, at 8:39 PM, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com
<mailto:gsasner@ripco.com> > wrote:

There are certain very important add ons. Why, when such discussions come
up, do people present yes or no choices, as though there are no other
options. Those who want NvDA with no add ons can be offered NVDA with no
add ons. A lot of users will never learn anything about add ons. If the
Windows 10 add on is needed to use many features well in Windows 10, that
add on should be included in distributions of NVDA intended for the general
user. If Winamp is still as popular as it used to be, the Winamp add on
should probably be included. What about the add on, which I gather isn't an
officially supported NVDA add on but which should be seriously considered to
be one, that allows Firefox users to jump to information messages that
needed to be acted on. Of course, there are a lot of add ons that need not
be included, but this shouldn't be a yes or no choice. there is no reason
to have it be an all or nothing decision.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Roger Stewart <mailto:paganus2@gmail.com>

Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 7:02 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda with all addons built in



Yes! We don't want NVDA to become bloatware! Leave the core as is and
maybe add some features most or all can use and then let each one decide
what add on to add. I have the SPL add on installed. If you don't ever
want to do broadcasting of any kind, why would you want this add on as part
of nvda? Same can be said for most add ons.

Roger











On 12/22/2017 5:55 PM, David Moore wrote:

I don’t think that all add ons should be installed into NVDA either!

The great thing about NVDA is that you can customize it to your liking with
the add ons that you want to install.

I want to respectfully say that Google Chrome, Google Drive and Google Docs
are becoming a must for high school and college students.

Students are expected to collaborate on line using Google docs, and the
cloud will be forced on everyone soon. Most companies will have their
workers using the cloud to work on the same document together either via MS
office web version, 365, or Google Docs, and Google apps.

The cloud is hear to stay if you want to go to school or have ajob.

I know high school kids who have to do all of their work with Google apps.

Have a great one!

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10



From: Gene <mailto:gsasner@ripco.com>
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 6:23 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda with all addons built in



There is no reason to have all add ons built in. there are certain
important add ons or add ons that would be very widely used, if people knew
about them that should be included. the Windows 10- app is probably such an
add on. Given the popularity of Winamp, perhaps that should be another.
Window-eyes included its Winamp app, as they called it. it wasn't coded
into the program but it is an example of what Window-eyes did. Many widely
used features that JAWS might script for were amade a part of Window-eyes by
distributing the app already running, with the program as part of the
installation.



I suppose there could be a version of NVDA with no add ons, but that version
would probably be preferred by reasonably knowledgeable users who understood
the difference.



Gene

----- Original Message -----

From: Lino Morales <mailto:linomorales001@gmail.com>

Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 5:13 PM

To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>

Subject: Re: [nvda] nvda with all addons built in



Why Google Drive. Really why any cloud based anything? I only use 1 Drive
now. I’m thinking of ditching Dropbox.



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From: Josh Kennedy <mailto:joshknnd1982@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, December 22, 2017 6:11 PM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io <mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: [nvda] nvda with all addons built in



Hi

Maybe to satisfy the jaws users, a version of NVDA should be created, with
all legal approved addons installed, and then uploaded to google drive and
shared. Maybe this would get more people using NVDA.





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