Re: I'm dissappointed

erik burggraaf <erik@...>

Hi Sandra,

On December 31, 2017 8:33:02 AM "Sandra Pilz" <sandra914481@...> wrote:

"For the new job I started this year, I can only use NVDA, because JAWS
will crash when I log into the web interface I am required to use."

I had this same experience when applying to a call centre job last year.  Hopefully your employer puts something into nvda on your behalf, since it seems to be useful in these situations.  It shouldn't matter which screen reader you use to access web databases, but I and others have experienced that nvda as a baseline works while jaws does not.

"However, I agree with Gene. JAWS is more easily configurable by the
user. You can label graphics, you can assign window classes and see if
that makes a program work more smoothly with NVDA, you can assign
application specific hotkeys. I am not so sure if the JAWS frames
feature still works so well under Windows 10. I just tried it recently
without success.

This is one area where I disagree.  Not that jaws has the features or that they are useful, but that they belong in NVDA.  I believe that it is the responsibility of developers to label their graphics and controls, draw and class their windows and controls properly, and build keyboard/touchscreen support for their apps properly.  This is increasingly required by law, imposed by societal change, taught as programming best practice, and demonstrably beneficial beyond the needs of disability communities.  Unfortunately, it's not all there yet, but within the next three years, it will become legally and socially inacceptable to build software without regard for accessibility standards, just as you wouldn't build out with no regard for UI, performance, security, and other common standards and best practices.  I believe the development philosophy of NVDA is based on this.  A screen reader should read the screen, conveying the information already provided in accessible format, doing as little interpretation as possible.  There's a school of thought on the list that says we should go to any length to bash information into shape: install and try to use every screen reader on the market for it's best task, build out features like rendering images of text into passably readable format, and so on.  I miss the days of hitting a button and getting graphics labeled myself, but in the current legal, social, and economic situation, it just makes more sense to push developers into programming best practice rather than re-invent the old, expensive, not quite totally effective, way of doing things.

"Also, for me the question is not only can I do something with a screen
reader, but also how quickly can I do what I need to do. One example for
me is the text analysing feature of JAWS in MS Word. I think it helps a
lot when writing a document and checking the formatting. I can do this
with NVDA, too, but it takes a lot longer. The JAWS text analyser or
whatever they call it just checks the document for me and allows me to
see where unexpected formatting or characters have been found. I then
can check whether they are intended or not and make corrections. And it
is so much quicker to do it that way than to read the entire document
with NVDA reporting all attributes selectable in the document dialogue
of NVDA. And additionally, the latter method is so monotonous that there
is the risk of not catching all of the formatting problems."

I have to agree with you here.  I am starting in on a computer programming diploma, and having to build visually appealing user interfaces.  It would be fantastic to have an add-on that would do some intense format, layout, style, information presented in a way that I could quickly make sure certin things look proper  Maybe I'll take this on as we're coming into python in winter semester.  To me, this is a perfect example of the kind of thing a screen reader should do.

"What would be the legal status for NVDA extensions written by a third
party to make a specific program more accessible? If the would they be
allowed to sell them? probably not, because NVDA is free. What would be
the incentive for them to develop these extensions for rarely used
software if they can only bill the hours once?"

I am not a lawyer and I haven'tttt read the developer documentation, but I don't see why enterprise developers couldn't charge for add-ons.  In fact, now that I think of it, many of the voice synthesizer add-ons are paid products. 

"I'm just

wondering if this could be
another reason why JAWS is chosen for the workplace more often than NVDA.


No, I think it has more to do with politics and the old paradigm than anything else.  When I was testing accessibility for that call centre job last year, I was told that the company had python programmers in house.  They seemed to be willing to script their own bolt-ons in house.  I'm guessing this represented a huge cost savings, as I've heard quotes for jaws scripting from $150 per hour up to $150 per line of code.

Now suppose that this call centre approached an old paradigm so called access technology specialist company and asked for consulting on how to accebilitize their IT infrestructure.  What would the specialist say?  "install NVDA for free and pay us $150 per hour to write python"?  or, "install a floating licence of jaws for five grand, then pay us $150 per line for proprietary scripts.  Then buy future proofing to keep your at and it's scripts up-to-date"  I think the second is more likely.  The first is more stable, more long term sustainable, less proprietary, and cheeper, but the second is in line with the self-interest of the AT consultant.

"I think thanks to object navigation, NVDA could have a superior feature
to JAWS' being able to read frames. It would be cool if we were able to
specify a screen object, and then tell NVDA what we want it to do with
the object: read it whenever content changes, leftclick or rightclick it
and probably more. Frames in JAWS only worked if screen resolution
didn't change. If the actions were tied to an object and not a frame
thus not dependent on its dimensions on the screen, the configuration
could work for different people with different screen resolutions.

Right again, although this might already be possible.  If not, it should end up in an add-on one of these days.  But again, for the vast majority of things, we expect the developer to develop and the screen reader to read the screen.  Reading specific sections of busy screens at a touch would be super handy, but if your developer did their keyboard support properly, there would be few if any instances of requiring some one to access features exclusively with a mouse.



Am 23.12.2017 um 23:52 schrieb Gene:
> You can't label graphics, you can't create frames and there is no
> adjustment of the screen echo.  There is also no way to skip baqck and
> forward by line when the screen echo is set to all or when using read
> to end and have speech continue.  If these abilities were present, as
> far as I know, that would make NVDA as user configurable as JAWS and
> Window-eyes.  These are important lacks in NVDA.
> Gene
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Adriani Botez <mailto:adriani.botez@...>
> *Sent:* Saturday, December 23, 2017 2:34 PM
> *To:* <>
> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed
> This is not correct. NVDA is well adjustable, even much easier than jaws.
> Von meinem iPhone gesendet
> Am 23.12.2017 um 03:47 schrieb Gene <gsasner@...
> <mailto:gsasner@...>>:
>> You can't do what I could do when I used Pine with a shell account a
>> long time ago.  I didn't need to create any frames or scripts.  All I
>> had to do was set the screen echo of JAWS to all, open a message, and
>> then use the jaws skip line wile reading feature, right shift, to
>> very quickly jump to the start of the message body.  Even if NVDA
>> reads such material when it appears on screen, you either listen to
>> everything or nothing and use the tedious read by line screen review
>> option.  Hardly a convenient or reasonable way to go through thirty
>> e-mails.
>> Like it or not, NVDA isn't user definable.  You can't label graphics
>> and you can't create frames.  These are serious deficiencies even if
>> many of us don't need such options.
>> And you can't set the screen echo to all and then do what I did, as I
>> described.  This may be an important ability for some users.
>> Gene
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> *From:* coffeekingms@... <mailto:coffeekingms@...>
>> *Sent:* Friday, December 22, 2017 7:16 PM
>> *To:* <>
>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed
>> Hi
>> I concur. I  firmly believe that NVDA can do most, if not all, the
>> things more expensive programs can do. With some very rare
>> exceptions. There are still some apps that require jfw with specific
>> scripts to be usable, but as time goes on those apps will dwindle
>> until there are none left. But for 99 percent of people, NVDA can
>> work for them, either alone or in combination with narrator, which
>> has gotten quite good. I don’t really set much store by such
>> presentations, as the few I’ve bothered to listen to gloss over the
>> free options as if they’re not there, are not worth mentioning or
>> aren’t good enough. This applies to NVDA as well as open source
>> operating systems like Linux. I have not listened to the presentation
>> people are talking about, so I don’t want to ruffle any feathers, but
>> as a rule I don’t listen to them. They tend to unilaterally insist
>> that only the paid apps are worth using. Except for the NVDA
>> podcasts. Those are great, although I don’t follow those either. I’m
>> just a user. I use NVDA on a daily basis and have found very little
>> that it can’t do. If it can’t navigate an app by the usual methods,
>> tab, shift tab, arrows, then it can by either touch, if you have a
>> touch screen or object navigation.Even when I was using Linux full
>> time I would keep up with NVDA’s progress, and NVDA is what
>> eventually brought me back to using windows again.
>> Thanks
>> Kendell Clark
>> Sent from Mail <> for
>> Windows 10
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> *From:* <>
>> < <>> on behalf of Don H
>> <lmddh50@... <mailto:lmddh50@...>>
>> *Sent:* Friday, December 22, 2017 6:18:54 PM
>> *To:* <>
>> *Subject:* Re: [nvda] I'm dissappointed
>> I think that NVDA is just as good or better than any other screen
>> reader.  I think the issue for businesses is the fact that NVDA is open
>> source thus in their minds less secure.

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