Re: Long Link Names Make Reading Difficult

Antony Stone

How do you read emails which have both HTML and plain text parts?

In my experience this is far more common than emails with HTML only (no plain
text part).


On Friday 04 May 2018 at 17:14:04, Louis Maher wrote:

Thanks Gene.

I am reading e-mails in the format they are sent in. For example, I am
reading this one in html; although the original mathematical example I
sent was sent at text.

I agree that the links are not being read correctly. I will continue to
work this issue, including looking into other e-mail solutions.

Thanks for your comments.

Louis Maher
Phone: 713-444-7838
E-mail ljmaher03@...

From: <> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, May 4, 2018 10:46 AM
To: Gene <gsasner@...>;
Subject: Re: [nvda] Long Link Names Make Reading Difficult

Also, are you reading messages as plain text or as HTML? If you read them
as plain text, some links won't read properly.

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene<mailto:gsasner@...>
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2018 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Long Link Names Make Reading Difficult

It appears that the links aren't being read correctly. They are evidently
links that should just be read as text as links on web pages are reead.

This sounds like just one more problem related to Outlook, which is the
subject of far more messages I see describing problems than any other
popular Windows e-mail program among blind people.

It may be that the NVDA developers, if theis is a general problem, will
address it. Unless you need Outlook for some reason, it would be a good
idea to try firefox or Windows Live Mail.

----- Original Message -----
From: Louis Maher<mailto:ljmaher03@...>
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2018 10:16 AM
To: NVDA Discussion List (<>
Subject: [nvda] Long Link Names Make Reading Difficult


Lately I have been encountering very long links which make reading
difficult, especially in e-mails. The links span several lines, and are
difficult to arrow past. Also, some of the text is either at the
beginning or end of these long links and are difficult to separate from
the long links. I am using Outlook 2016.

JAWS seems to be able to confine the links to one line; also, JAWS seems to
be able to eliminate reading blank lines when there are several blank
lines between paragraphs.

Are there any NVDA settings which can confine the links to one line and
eliminate reading multiple blank lines in Outlook 2016?


Louis Maher
Phone: 713-444-7838
E-mail ljmaher03@...<mailto:ljmaher03@...>

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath
<blindmath-bounces@...<mailto:blindmath-bounces@...>> On
Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs via BlindMath Sent: Friday, May 4, 2018 4:00
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath@...<mailto:blindmath@...>> Cc: Brandon Keith
Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs@...<mailto:brandonkeithbiggs@...>>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Typing Math and Science Quickly and


That article was very good thank you!

I would like to get an overview of how these different tools for producing
math output work. Here is what I understand so far, please correct me
where I'm wrong:

Every single method of producing inclusive math documents requires the
LaTeX [syntax.](

The only difference is in the editor and compiler.

There are four ways of producing math content on the computer:

F1. (note I couldn't install the 30 day trial to test this out as the
accept license screen was not accessible) Using Microsoft Word or the
editor with [Mathtype.](
&sdata=M0vgsFeq6JmKX%2FakP4HrdQEIIiKbDjhCt0Nyc0NYLMA%3D&reserved=0) This
allows you to have a large symbol list to choose from rather than needing
to type LaTeX, although you can type LaTeX if you wish. This has more
immediate feedback as users are able to read their equations in MathML
instantly rather than waiting to compile. This allows people to edit math
in Word which is generally a familiar environment. The downside is the
program costs around $50 a year and you don't get the powerful abilities
such as using BibTX, for writing papers. For math though, this works just
fine. So pros are familiar environment in Word, WYSIWYG symbol list and
editing, and access to the tools word has, such as spellcheck. Cons are
the cost, lack of external tools such as BibTX, and the need for two
proprietary applications.

2. Using [pandoc](
yR1z9JH6WKe7AkQIQ%2Bcxcs%3D&reserved=0) to compile either pure LaTeX or
Markdown combined with LaTeX. Pros are the vast number of formats one can
export to, the ability to type in both LaTeX and Markdown, completely open
source, and access to tools such as BibTX. The cons are the need for one
to use the command line, the requirement to type LaTeX math, and the need
for one to understand how text editors and file types work.

3. Using [RMarkdown](
Ztm11eRL7OJx0w%2BOg0nQLGSY5O4Ur%2B9tk%3D&reserved=0) Is basically for
programmers to insert output from programs (such as python or R scripts)
into a document. That way you don't need to insert screenshots or type the
output of the program every time you compile. Other than that it is
pandoc. Pros are the ability to call code from your Markdown file, massive
number of output file formats, completely open source, and the ability to
use tools such as BibTX. Cons are that one needs to use Markdown, the
required use of the command line, required use of LaTeX math, and the need
to understand editors and file types.

4. Using [MiKTeX](
0apWAJVHqRfNEz22bD0Kb41I%3D&reserved=0) with either a text editor or an IDE
like [TEXnicCenter.](

Pros are that everything is integrated so no knowledge of the command line
is needed, ability to export in a wide range of formats, and ability to
use tools like BibTX. Cons are the configuration options if one wishes to
do anything other than the default, the need to type in pure LaTeX, and
exclusive to Windows (although there are text editors and IDEs other than
TeXnicCenter that can be used on other operating systems).

From what I have generally seen, Word is preferred by new users or users
who like to use word, pandoc is preferred by users who are intermediate or
above and who are not afraid of the command line, RMarkdown is used by
programmers and data annalists who run code, and TeXnicCenter is used by
people who want a simple plug and play tool for conversion between LaTeX
and other formats. They each have their different affordances and should
be used accordingly.


Brandon Keith Biggs

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Godfrey, Jonathan via BlindMath <
blindmath@...<mailto:blindmath@...>> wrote:
Hi Brandon,

Take out all the backslashes in the example you sent through that
aren't part of a mathematical expression. White space does all that is
needed for line breaks, indenting etc. in markdown documents.

You can't change the cumbersome nature of the LaTeX content for
equations, but I suggest using *x* instead of the more common $x$
within paragraphs because the font is so similar that it doesn't
matter to the sighted audience but the conversion to italics from the
stars is not spoken by a screen reader while the conversion to math
mode from use of dollars is announced. This suggestion does break the
rules for semantic correctness, but the distraction that is caused by
the screen reader telling me x was math content can often detract from
the overall reading experience of the final document especially in
sentences where there are plenty of elements using simple mathematical
notation. (You can't do this for super or subscripts so easily, or if the
element needs a {} construct for example.

One of the major pluses for encouraging my colleagues and anyone else
preparing material that might be read by a blind person is that the
author does not have to think about accessibility during document
preparation. The access is built in so often because markdown forces
an author to at least know they didn't add an alt tag for a graphic
because they left some brackets empty. They often don't know what
they've done (positive or
negative) in reality so occasionally, some helpful reminders are
required. <smiles> Markdown won't stop people choosing daft text for
hyperlinks such as "here" but that's a societal issue not a mathematical

Compare the simplicity of markdown to the pain to get an alt tag
added to a graphic inserted into a LaTeX document. Yes it is possible,
but it requires some additional work by the author if the document is
to be born accessible or some post hoc editing by a human to build in
that access. I can do the former, but as a blind person the latter
option is annoying in HTML and impossible if the output file is in pdf.

As it happens, I did write up some starting suggestions for markdown
documents which are tailored to people using the R variant of markdown.
Head to


-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath
<blindmath-bounces@...<mailto:blindmath-bounces@...>> On
Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs via BlindMath
Sent: Friday, 4 May 2018 10:24 a.m.
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <
Cc: Brandon Keith Biggs
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Typing Math and Science Quickly and

Hello Jonathan,
Do you have something that explains the least cumbersome syntax for
Markdown / LaTeX?

Brandon Keith Biggs

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 2:11 PM, Godfrey, Jonathan via BlindMath <

blindmath@...<mailto:blindmath@...>> wrote:

You are correct that use of LaTeX within a markdown document leads
to the same outcome as the workflow you have used in MS Word with
MathType. I don't think you should suddenly change workflow for
improved access to the mathematical content. There are other reasons
why you should get use of pandoc into your toolbox though.

I do think Brandon's example is more cumbersome than it needed to be.
I use markdown almost daily, and I only ever put a \ to get
mathematical content. Forever listening to backslash from any screen
reader is annoying, slows me down, and often presents a distraction.
This was a leading reason for reducing my use of full-blown LaTeX.

I would urge you to make use of the LEAN editor mentioned in this
thread to enhance your workflow. The feature of LEAN I use most is
the addition of tags to the math content so that you do not need to
go backwards and forwards into LaTeX mode to read the content, and
you don't have to use the specific combination of tools (screen
reader + math player). LEAN offers an alternative and I am not
suggesting it as a replacement. Having options is power, because it
puts you in control.

I do think you need to enhance what you do a little to get the best
of what you have now before you embark on all manner of options. I
would also suggest to you that the accuracy aspect of your criticism
of LaTeX (while
true) is also true for practically every tool you will use, and is
also true for the scientific content you will be working with. I
think your initial message to this thread said you were considering
a computer science major; the programming languages you use will
have limited flexibility to deal with the human inaccuracies that
even the best among us is prone to create. For me, it is the ability
to find and correct these inaccuracies that tells me how truly
accessible a solution is for me. Markdown is the solution that works
best for me
today; it is not the only solution I use.

My final point is about use of a personal system. I know plenty of
blind people who have little shorthand things we write. The problem
is that they are individual and can't be shared. The most likely
person you will want to share your work with is your future-self.
Will you recall the shorthand you use today in ten years' time?


-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath
<blindmath-bounces@...<mailto:blindmath-bounces@...>> On
Behalf Of Bhavya shah via BlindMath
Sent: Friday, 4 May 2018 8:05 a.m.
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <
Cc: Bhavya shah
<bhavya.shah125@...<mailto:bhavya.shah125@...>> Subject:
Re: [BlindMath] Typing Math and Science Quickly and

Hi Brandon,

In essence, this method is very similar to how I used to use LaTeX
of MathType to generate Math ML content that was visually readible
and screen reader firnedly with the help of NVDA and Math Player.
However, my only two concerns are that using LaTeX or any other
standardized Math code to type would almost invariably mean (1)
slightly longer and stricter syntax that would need to be
mandatorily followed, and (2) there are several reasons, some of
which include lack of customization in pronunciation and excessive
pausing, why I found reading Math ML with the help of Math Player
and NVDA somewhat cumbersome in my past experiences. If I come to
think of it, it is quite certain that at some point in time, either
for typing my own Math&Science or for reading my transcribed course
material, I will need to deal with Math ML using Math Player and
NVDA, so in a day at most, I will be retrying Math ML and sharing
some of the more significant concerns and issues I
have with interacting with Math ML.

Kindly let me know if my present understanding of the method you
described that this is just Pandoc instead of MathType and
commandline instead of Word for using LaTeX to generate Math ML
content is
fundamentally incorrect.


On 5/3/18, Brandon Keith Biggs via BlindMath
Markdown with LaTeX is perfect for you. Here is an example that
Lukasz (from this list wrote):

## Parametric Forms

*transcriber: system of two equations, each one has an extra
information after comma* \ $x = t^2 -2t$, $dx = 2t-2$ \ $y= t+1$,
minimum at $t=1$ \
*transcriber: end of the system*

For window:
$t$ from $[-2,4]$, $t$ step $= 0.1$ \ $x$ from $[-1,10]$ \ $y$
from $[-1,5]$

# something easier

$3x + y = 10$
$9 * 5 = 45$
$\frac{1}{2} + \frac{1}{2} = 1$

This converts perfectly to MathML using pandoc:

You install pandoc, open a command line where you have the math
content and

pandoc --mathml -s -o my_html_output_file.html

You can give your professor the html file and they can read it in
print just fine. If you have a Braille display, the MathML shows
up just fine and it is also read by the screen reader. NVDA
requires Math player (see the user guide under reading math
content for more


Brandon Keith Biggs

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Sean Tikkun via BlindMath <

blindmath@...<mailto:blindmath@...>> wrote:
Bhavya Shah,

I am assembling a team to generate 3D models to assist in

learning. The team leaders are a former math teacher fluent in
Braille (me) and a Fabrication lab director that teaches
Biological and Chemical Sciences at the University level. If you
have access to 3D printing I would love to know what you may
need. Files are easy to send. If not, perhaps there is a
fabrication lab at a university in Mumbai that would be interested
in some collaboration?

Feel free to reach out.

Sean Tikkun
Apple Distinguished Educator
class of 2007

On May 01, 2018, at 08:51 PM, Sabra Ewing via BlindMath <
blindmath@...<mailto:blindmath@...>> wrote:

I typed most of my math using the first method. You might be able
to type more quickly if you had a braille keyboard. Also note
that you can use parentheses and brackets. The Pearce in equation
editor can produce math in a visual format. It is free. The
braille note touch can do this as well although it is very
expensive. I would definitely say to use a keyboard.
not type on your phone as I am doing now because it is much slower.
thing you can do is use copy and paste. You do not have to type
everything from scratch. You can copy previous steps to your
clipboard, paste them, and then modify them to create your future
steps. Like for example, you might write a chemical equation that
is not balanced. Paste this equation underneath it so you have
two copies of the same equation. Then, take the first step toward
balancing that equation and make those changes to your second copy.
Now you have your equation and underneath it, you have the
modified version with step one completed, so copied the version
with step one completed to your clipboard and paste it
underneath. Now you have the original equation, and you have two
copies of step one. Modified the second copy of step one based on
what you plan to do in
step two.

Continue this method until you have finished the problem. With a
braille keyboard, you should be able to type as fast as someone
can speak and even faster. If you cannot or a braille keyboard is
not an option, you can record what is being said with a phone or
other recording device and you can then go back over it. Another
thing you can do is request things in electronic format. Mini
American professors do not know how to create accessible math
when it is really very easy as you described. You do not have to
know any markup languages. You can create accessible math just by
using your computer keyboard, and in many cases, if you are a
computer science student, your math is in the perfect format to
just paste right over into your

Indian professors would be better at creating accessible. If not,
you might be able to find someone who can do it. This will be
especially easy if you can find some funding. I was not lucky in
this regard because other than professors, I never found a
dedicated person who knew how to produce accessible math. I
finally got to a position where I could no longer receive
accessible math because I moved on to a four-year university
where the professors did not know how to produce it. It is very
ironic that when I started out at a two year university, the
professors did know how to produce it. I approach programmers,
professors, deans, and
department head.

No one actually knew how including the programmers who produce
accessible math every day. I finally had to end up listening to
my math on recordings and writing everything down. It was very
difficult. If you want to get math in braille, there is software
that can do it called Duxberry. Ironically, my university
actually had this software, but no one knew how to use it
including the people who worked at disability services. Getting
it for yourself will not be helpful. If you get this software,
you will need someone who can modify the equations for you. If
your professor has files that were generated from a markup
language, you could try asking for those source files. Even if
you do not know the markup language, math is written very
similarly when you are programming computers, so you could probably
pick up how to read it. Unfortunately, my professors used PDFs that
they got from other sources or pictures of hand written documents
so I could not do this. People will try to tell you that Matt
cannot be produced excessively on the computer. This simply is not
true. Every mathematical formula, function, and number known to
humankind can be programmed into a computer using a text based
programming language. Also, many of these functions and formulas
can be put into XL. If you can put these formulas into XL, then you
can produce them accessibly in a word document. If someone is
trying to tell you that they can't, then just tell them to put it
in a
spreadsheet, press F2 on the cells, and read the formulas that way.

XL is very good because you can use it to organize data, you can
use it as a calculator, and you can use it to create tables and

You can put these documents in your dropbox and you can get the
pictures of the graphs.
You can then import these pictures into the voice app on your
phone and you can listen to them. If you are going to listen to
pie charts, to make it easier on yourself to read, use the 3-D
exploding pie charts. This may sound counterintuitive, but when
you listen to them, there is a bit more separation between each
piece. I don't know how you would get training to listen to grass.
I just automatically was born knowing how to do it. No one ever
taught me. I could always listen to graphs very easily and I could
never read
tactile graphics.

There is also a program called math tracks where you can create
audio graphs by entering in equations.However, it is really best
to have both the equation and the data because what if you
created a graph using any equation, and you need to make some
changes to the

Well, you don't have the data, so what are you going to do? You
could probably generate the data from the equation in some cases,
but that will take forever. I like to listen to a graph and have
the spreadsheet in front of me at the same time. There is also a
chemist named Dr.

sapalo. I'm not sure how to spell his name. I have his card
somewhere but I just have to find it. I really wish people would
start using those barcode Cards where I can scan the contact
information into my phone, but I only know one person who uses
those. Anyways, You may want to get in touch with him. He has all
of these probes. They do all different things. They connect to a
computer and they can measure chemical reactions and make graphs
and do all this stuff depending on what probe you use. For
example, you could use one probe to graph the color changes that
occur during
an experiment.

You could use another probe to track temperature changes like ice

I don't really do chemistry, but if I did, I imagine I would want
this thing, but I can't remember what it is called. But he is
actually a chemistry professor at a university. He is totally
blind and he teaches classes and runs labs and does all sorts of
things. There are plenty of blind computer scientists, but he
struck my interest in particular because I have not heard of mini
blind chemists. He also had some good advice for 3-D printing that
would work in the United States, but I am not sure if it would work
in India. If possible though, you may want to get some 3-D models
printed. Another thing is that you want to stay
consistent. You want to make sure that you are doing things in
the classroom the same way you will do them during testing. In my
chemistry class, I did not have access to a lot of 3-D models,
but for testing purposes, they made me a 3-D model.
This really was not fair because it was made out of a lot of cups
and straws. I did not know what it was, and it is not fair to use
models for testing purposes that you did not use in the classroom
or to use a different method for testing purposes that you did
not use in the classroom because this will skew the results. If
you use certain accommodations in the classroom, insist on the
same accommodations for testing.

Sabra Ewing

On May 1, 2018, at 5:22 PM, Bhavya shah via BlindMath <
blindmath@...<mailto:blindmath@...>> wrote:

Dear all,

I am Bhavya Shah, a totally blind 16-year-old student from
Mumbai, India. Having just completed my tenth grade with the same
Mathematics and Science syllabus as my sighted peers in a
mainstream school, I intend to take up the Science stream
according to the Indian education system for Classes 11 and 12
with the subject combination of
Physics+Chemistry+Mathematics, and probably take up something
the lines of Computer Science for my undergraduate studies after
that (although I shouldn’t overly worry about about finalizing
that for now, I suppose). Additionally, I shall be enrolling into
coaching for a very competitive pan-India engineering entrance
examination over the next two years where I will be delving into
particularly advanced topics in to the three afore-mentioned

Till Class 10, I managed an overwhelming chunk of Math either
orally or mentally, and from what I have been informed, have
dealt with relatively very simple organic structures, general
numericals and chemical equations which I have been handling
mostly via plain

It has become increasingly clear to me that this makeshift method
will be extremely inefficient and consequently infeasible for the
kind of syllabus I am transitioning to. Hence, I am looking for
different techniques, tools or methods of typing Math and Science
that will allow me to be as rapid a Math&Science typist as I am
of the English language (at its peak, my fingers have achieved
WPM) so that I can cope with the daily rigor this coaching demands.
I need to be able to type mathematical and scientific content
accurately and swiftly not necessarily such that it is visually
readable by a sighted professor but more so for my own reference,
understanding and purposes of review and revision.

So far, I am versed only with two options – ASCII Math, where I
would just type Math and Science using standard symbols present
on any keyboard such as /, *, ^ and so on to denote different
things (perhaps
(x+2)/x-1)) in chiefly plain text, or type things in LaTeX using
MathType ($\frac{x+2}{x-1}$) and employ Math Player and NVDA to
read it. From my basic understanding of this and limited past
experience with each of these methods, the former sounds much
faster and more efficient to me, but I am open to evidence and
experiences suggesting otherwise. There are various other Math
typing tools I have heard about over the years such as Infty
Reader and Lean Math, but have never adequately researched them
let alone
used them to any extent.

Any information or instructional material on these and other
potential alternatives you would recommend would be of great help

I would truly appreciate any assistance on different strategies
you may have used to math your sighted counterparts’ speed in
terms of writing and solving mathematical and scientific
material, questions and problem sets.


Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Join to automatically receive all group messages.