Re: Long Link Names Make Reading Difficult

Louis Maher <ljmaher03@...>

Hi Antony,

Outlook makes that decision. I am assuming that if there is any html in a message, then all the message is read as HTML.

Louis Maher
Phone: 713-444-7838
E-mail ljmaher03@...

-----Original Message-----
From: <> On Behalf Of Antony Stone
Sent: Friday, May 4, 2018 11:18 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Long Link Names Make Reading Difficult

How do you read emails which have both HTML and plain text parts?

In my experience this is far more common than emails with HTML only (no plain text part).


On Friday 04 May 2018 at 17:14:04, Louis Maher wrote:

Thanks Gene.

I am reading e-mails in the format they are sent in. For example, I
am reading this one in html; although the original mathematical
example I sent was sent at text.

I agree that the links are not being read correctly. I will continue
to work this issue, including looking into other e-mail solutions.

Thanks for your comments.

Louis Maher
Phone: 713-444-7838
E-mail ljmaher03@...

From: <> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, May 4, 2018 10:46 AM
To: Gene <gsasner@...>;
Subject: Re: [nvda] Long Link Names Make Reading Difficult

Also, are you reading messages as plain text or as HTML? If you read
them as plain text, some links won't read properly.

----- Original Message -----
From: Gene<mailto:gsasner@...>
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2018 10:35 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Long Link Names Make Reading Difficult

It appears that the links aren't being read correctly. They are
evidently links that should just be read as text as links on web pages are reead.

This sounds like just one more problem related to Outlook, which is
the subject of far more messages I see describing problems than any
other popular Windows e-mail program among blind people.

It may be that the NVDA developers, if theis is a general problem,
will address it. Unless you need Outlook for some reason, it would be
a good idea to try firefox or Windows Live Mail.

----- Original Message -----
From: Louis Maher<mailto:ljmaher03@...>
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2018 10:16 AM
To: NVDA Discussion List
Subject: [nvda] Long Link Names Make Reading Difficult


Lately I have been encountering very long links which make reading
difficult, especially in e-mails. The links span several lines, and
are difficult to arrow past. Also, some of the text is either at the
beginning or end of these long links and are difficult to separate
from the long links. I am using Outlook 2016.

JAWS seems to be able to confine the links to one line; also, JAWS
seems to be able to eliminate reading blank lines when there are
several blank lines between paragraphs.

Are there any NVDA settings which can confine the links to one line
and eliminate reading multiple blank lines in Outlook 2016?


Louis Maher
Phone: 713-444-7838
E-mail ljmaher03@...<mailto:ljmaher03@...>

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath
<blindmath-bounces@...<mailto:blindmath-bounces@...>> On
Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs via BlindMath Sent: Friday, May 4, 2018
4:00 AM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath@...<mailto:blindmath@...>> Cc: Brandon Keith
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Typing Math and Science Quickly and


That article was very good thank you!

I would like to get an overview of how these different tools for
producing math output work. Here is what I understand so far, please
correct me where I'm wrong:

Every single method of producing inclusive math documents requires the
LaTeX [syntax.](

The only difference is in the editor and compiler.

There are four ways of producing math content on the computer:

F1. (note I couldn't install the 30 day trial to test this out as the
accept license screen was not accessible) Using Microsoft Word or the
editor with [Mathtype.](
This allows you to have a large symbol list to choose from rather than
needing to type LaTeX, although you can type LaTeX if you wish. This
has more immediate feedback as users are able to read their equations
in MathML instantly rather than waiting to compile. This allows people
to edit math in Word which is generally a familiar environment. The
downside is the program costs around $50 a year and you don't get the
powerful abilities such as using BibTX, for writing papers. For math
though, this works just fine. So pros are familiar environment in
Word, WYSIWYG symbol list and editing, and access to the tools word
has, such as spellcheck. Cons are the cost, lack of external tools
such as BibTX, and the need for two proprietary applications.

2. Using [pandoc](
yR1z9JH6WKe7AkQIQ%2Bcxcs%3D&reserved=0) to compile either pure LaTeX
or Markdown combined with LaTeX. Pros are the vast number of formats
one can export to, the ability to type in both LaTeX and Markdown,
completely open source, and access to tools such as BibTX. The cons
are the need for one to use the command line, the requirement to type
LaTeX math, and the need for one to understand how text editors and file types work.

3. Using [RMarkdown](
Ztm11eRL7OJx0w%2BOg0nQLGSY5O4Ur%2B9tk%3D&reserved=0) Is basically for
programmers to insert output from programs (such as python or R
scripts) into a document. That way you don't need to insert
screenshots or type the output of the program every time you compile.
Other than that it is pandoc. Pros are the ability to call code from
your Markdown file, massive number of output file formats, completely
open source, and the ability to use tools such as BibTX. Cons are that
one needs to use Markdown, the required use of the command line,
required use of LaTeX math, and the need to understand editors and file types.

4. Using [MiKTeX](
0apWAJVHqRfNEz22bD0Kb41I%3D&reserved=0) with either a text editor or
an IDE like [TEXnicCenter.](

Pros are that everything is integrated so no knowledge of the command
line is needed, ability to export in a wide range of formats, and
ability to use tools like BibTX. Cons are the configuration options if
one wishes to do anything other than the default, the need to type in
pure LaTeX, and exclusive to Windows (although there are text editors
and IDEs other than TeXnicCenter that can be used on other operating systems).

From what I have generally seen, Word is preferred by new users or
users who like to use word, pandoc is preferred by users who are
intermediate or above and who are not afraid of the command line,
RMarkdown is used by programmers and data annalists who run code, and
TeXnicCenter is used by people who want a simple plug and play tool
for conversion between LaTeX and other formats. They each have their
different affordances and should be used accordingly.


Brandon Keith Biggs
Mqkt0 xuFNrcj9QMnQmUUjaX%2BWpRuqA74U%2F8E%3D&reserved=0>

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Godfrey, Jonathan via BlindMath <
blindmath@...<mailto:blindmath@...>> wrote:
Hi Brandon,

Take out all the backslashes in the example you sent through that
aren't part of a mathematical expression. White space does all that
is needed for line breaks, indenting etc. in markdown documents.

You can't change the cumbersome nature of the LaTeX content for
equations, but I suggest using *x* instead of the more common $x$
within paragraphs because the font is so similar that it doesn't
matter to the sighted audience but the conversion to italics from
the stars is not spoken by a screen reader while the conversion to
math mode from use of dollars is announced. This suggestion does
break the rules for semantic correctness, but the distraction that
is caused by the screen reader telling me x was math content can
often detract from the overall reading experience of the final
document especially in sentences where there are plenty of elements
using simple mathematical notation. (You can't do this for super or
subscripts so easily, or if the element needs a {} construct for example.

One of the major pluses for encouraging my colleagues and anyone
else preparing material that might be read by a blind person is that
the author does not have to think about accessibility during
document preparation. The access is built in so often because
markdown forces an author to at least know they didn't add an alt
tag for a graphic because they left some brackets empty. They often
don't know what they've done (positive or
negative) in reality so occasionally, some helpful reminders are
required. <smiles> Markdown won't stop people choosing daft text for
hyperlinks such as "here" but that's a societal issue not a
mathematical one.

Compare the simplicity of markdown to the pain to get an alt tag
added to a graphic inserted into a LaTeX document. Yes it is
possible, but it requires some additional work by the author if the
document is to be born accessible or some post hoc editing by a
human to build in that access. I can do the former, but as a blind
person the latter option is annoying in HTML and impossible if the output file is in pdf.

As it happens, I did write up some starting suggestions for markdown
documents which are tailored to people using the R variant of markdown.
Head to


-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath
On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs via BlindMath
Sent: Friday, 4 May 2018 10:24 a.m.
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <
Cc: Brandon Keith Biggs
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Typing Math and Science Quickly and

Hello Jonathan,
Do you have something that explains the least cumbersome syntax for
Markdown / LaTeX?

Brandon Keith Biggs
at a=ec1B3YlMqkt0xuFNrcj9QMnQmUUjaX%2BWpRuqA74U%2F8E%3D&reserved=0>

On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 2:11 PM, Godfrey, Jonathan via BlindMath <

blindmath@...<mailto:blindmath@...>> wrote:

You are correct that use of LaTeX within a markdown document leads
to the same outcome as the workflow you have used in MS Word with
MathType. I don't think you should suddenly change workflow for
improved access to the mathematical content. There are other
reasons why you should get use of pandoc into your toolbox though.

I do think Brandon's example is more cumbersome than it needed to be.
I use markdown almost daily, and I only ever put a \ to get
mathematical content. Forever listening to backslash from any
screen reader is annoying, slows me down, and often presents a distraction.
This was a leading reason for reducing my use of full-blown LaTeX.

I would urge you to make use of the LEAN editor mentioned in this
thread to enhance your workflow. The feature of LEAN I use most is
the addition of tags to the math content so that you do not need
to go backwards and forwards into LaTeX mode to read the content,
and you don't have to use the specific combination of tools
(screen reader + math player). LEAN offers an alternative and I am
not suggesting it as a replacement. Having options is power,
because it puts you in control.

I do think you need to enhance what you do a little to get the
best of what you have now before you embark on all manner of
options. I would also suggest to you that the accuracy aspect of
your criticism of LaTeX (while
true) is also true for practically every tool you will use, and is
also true for the scientific content you will be working with. I
think your initial message to this thread said you were
considering a computer science major; the programming languages
you use will have limited flexibility to deal with the human
inaccuracies that even the best among us is prone to create. For
me, it is the ability to find and correct these inaccuracies that
tells me how truly accessible a solution is for me. Markdown is
the solution that works best for me
today; it is not the only solution I use.

My final point is about use of a personal system. I know plenty of
blind people who have little shorthand things we write. The
problem is that they are individual and can't be shared. The most
likely person you will want to share your work with is your future-self.
Will you recall the shorthand you use today in ten years' time?


-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath
On Behalf Of Bhavya shah via BlindMath
Sent: Friday, 4 May 2018 8:05 a.m.
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics <
Cc: Bhavya shah
<bhavya.shah125@...<mailto:bhavya.shah125@...>> Subject:
Re: [BlindMath] Typing Math and Science Quickly and Understandably

Hi Brandon,

In essence, this method is very similar to how I used to use LaTeX
of MathType to generate Math ML content that was visually readible
and screen reader firnedly with the help of NVDA and Math Player.
However, my only two concerns are that using LaTeX or any other
standardized Math code to type would almost invariably mean (1)
slightly longer and stricter syntax that would need to be
mandatorily followed, and (2) there are several reasons, some of
which include lack of customization in pronunciation and excessive
pausing, why I found reading Math ML with the help of Math Player
and NVDA somewhat cumbersome in my past experiences. If I come to
think of it, it is quite certain that at some point in time,
either for typing my own Math&Science or for reading my
transcribed course material, I will need to deal with Math ML
using Math Player and NVDA, so in a day at most, I will be
retrying Math ML and sharing some of the more significant concerns
and issues I
have with interacting with Math ML.

Kindly let me know if my present understanding of the method you
described that this is just Pandoc instead of MathType and
commandline instead of Word for using LaTeX to generate Math ML
content is
fundamentally incorrect.


On 5/3/18, Brandon Keith Biggs via BlindMath
Markdown with LaTeX is perfect for you. Here is an example that
Lukasz (from this list wrote):

## Parametric Forms

*transcriber: system of two equations, each one has an extra
information after comma* \ $x = t^2 -2t$, $dx = 2t-2$ \ $y=
t+1$, minimum at $t=1$ \
*transcriber: end of the system*

For window:
$t$ from $[-2,4]$, $t$ step $= 0.1$ \ $x$ from $[-1,10]$ \ $y$
from $[-1,5]$

# something easier

$3x + y = 10$
$9 * 5 = 45$
$\frac{1}{2} + \frac{1}{2} = 1$

This converts perfectly to MathML using pandoc:

You install pandoc, open a command line where you have the math
content and

pandoc --mathml -s -o my_html_output_file.html

You can give your professor the html file and they can read it
in print just fine. If you have a Braille display, the MathML
shows up just fine and it is also read by the screen reader.
NVDA requires Math player (see the user guide under reading math
content for more


Brandon Keith Biggs

On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Sean Tikkun via BlindMath <

blindmath@...<mailto:blindmath@...>> wrote:
Bhavya Shah,

I am assembling a team to generate 3D models to assist in

learning. The team leaders are a former math teacher fluent in
Braille (me) and a Fabrication lab director that teaches
Biological and Chemical Sciences at the University level. If
you have access to 3D printing I would love to know what you
may need. Files are easy to send. If not, perhaps there is a
fabrication lab at a university in Mumbai that would be
interested in some collaboration?

Feel free to reach out.

Sean Tikkun
Apple Distinguished Educator
class of 2007

On May 01, 2018, at 08:51 PM, Sabra Ewing via BlindMath <
blindmath@...<mailto:blindmath@...>> wrote:

I typed most of my math using the first method. You might be
able to type more quickly if you had a braille keyboard. Also
note that you can use parentheses and brackets. The Pearce in
equation editor can produce math in a visual format. It is
free. The braille note touch can do this as well although it is
very expensive. I would definitely say to use a keyboard.
not type on your phone as I am doing now because it is much slower.
thing you can do is use copy and paste. You do not have to type
everything from scratch. You can copy previous steps to your
clipboard, paste them, and then modify them to create your
future steps. Like for example, you might write a chemical
equation that is not balanced. Paste this equation underneath
it so you have two copies of the same equation. Then, take the
first step toward balancing that equation and make those changes to your second copy.
Now you have your equation and underneath it, you have the
modified version with step one completed, so copied the version
with step one completed to your clipboard and paste it
underneath. Now you have the original equation, and you have
two copies of step one. Modified the second copy of step one
based on what you plan to do in
step two.

Continue this method until you have finished the problem. With
a braille keyboard, you should be able to type as fast as
someone can speak and even faster. If you cannot or a braille
keyboard is not an option, you can record what is being said
with a phone or other recording device and you can then go back
over it. Another thing you can do is request things in
electronic format. Mini American professors do not know how to
create accessible math when it is really very easy as you
described. You do not have to know any markup languages. You
can create accessible math just by using your computer
keyboard, and in many cases, if you are a computer science
student, your math is in the perfect format to just paste right
over into your

Indian professors would be better at creating accessible. If
not, you might be able to find someone who can do it. This will
be especially easy if you can find some funding. I was not
lucky in this regard because other than professors, I never
found a dedicated person who knew how to produce accessible
math. I finally got to a position where I could no longer
receive accessible math because I moved on to a four-year
university where the professors did not know how to produce it.
It is very ironic that when I started out at a two year
university, the professors did know how to produce it. I
approach programmers, professors, deans, and
department head.

No one actually knew how including the programmers who produce
accessible math every day. I finally had to end up listening to
my math on recordings and writing everything down. It was very
difficult. If you want to get math in braille, there is
software that can do it called Duxberry. Ironically, my
university actually had this software, but no one knew how to
use it including the people who worked at disability services.
Getting it for yourself will not be helpful. If you get this
software, you will need someone who can modify the equations
for you. If your professor has files that were generated from a
markup language, you could try asking for those source files.
Even if you do not know the markup language, math is written
very similarly when you are programming computers, so you could
probably pick up how to read it. Unfortunately, my professors
used PDFs that they got from other sources or pictures of hand
written documents so I could not do this. People will try to
tell you that Matt cannot be produced excessively on the
computer. This simply is not true. Every mathematical formula,
function, and number known to humankind can be programmed into
a computer using a text based programming language. Also, many
of these functions and formulas can be put into XL. If you can
put these formulas into XL, then you can produce them
accessibly in a word document. If someone is trying to tell you
that they can't, then just tell them to put it in a
spreadsheet, press F2 on the cells, and read the formulas that way.

XL is very good because you can use it to organize data, you
can use it as a calculator, and you can use it to create tables

You can put these documents in your dropbox and you can get the
pictures of the graphs.
You can then import these pictures into the voice app on your
phone and you can listen to them. If you are going to listen to
pie charts, to make it easier on yourself to read, use the 3-D
exploding pie charts. This may sound counterintuitive, but when
you listen to them, there is a bit more separation between each
piece. I don't know how you would get training to listen to grass.
I just automatically was born knowing how to do it. No one ever
taught me. I could always listen to graphs very easily and I
could never read
tactile graphics.

There is also a program called math tracks where you can create
audio graphs by entering in equations.However, it is really
best to have both the equation and the data because what if you
created a graph using any equation, and you need to make some
changes to the

Well, you don't have the data, so what are you going to do? You
could probably generate the data from the equation in some
cases, but that will take forever. I like to listen to a graph
and have the spreadsheet in front of me at the same time. There
is also a blind
chemist named Dr.

sapalo. I'm not sure how to spell his name. I have his card
somewhere but I just have to find it. I really wish people
would start using those barcode Cards where I can scan the
contact information into my phone, but I only know one person
who uses those. Anyways, You may want to get in touch with him.
He has all of these probes. They do all different things. They
connect to a computer and they can measure chemical reactions
and make graphs and do all this stuff depending on what probe
you use. For example, you could use one probe to graph the
color changes that occur during
an experiment.

You could use another probe to track temperature changes like

I don't really do chemistry, but if I did, I imagine I would
want this thing, but I can't remember what it is called. But he
is actually a chemistry professor at a university. He is
totally blind and he teaches classes and runs labs and does all
sorts of things. There are plenty of blind computer scientists,
but he struck my interest in particular because I have not
heard of mini blind chemists. He also had some good advice for
3-D printing that would work in the United States, but I am not
sure if it would work in India. If possible though, you may
want to get some 3-D models printed. Another thing is that you
want to stay consistent. You want to make sure that you are
doing things in the classroom the same way you will do them
during testing. In my chemistry class, I did not have access to
a lot of 3-D models, but for testing purposes, they made me a 3-D model.
This really was not fair because it was made out of a lot of
cups and straws. I did not know what it was, and it is not fair
to use models for testing purposes that you did not use in the
classroom or to use a different method for testing purposes
that you did not use in the classroom because this will skew
the results. If you use certain accommodations in the
classroom, insist on the same accommodations for testing.

Sabra Ewing

On May 1, 2018, at 5:22 PM, Bhavya shah via BlindMath <
blindmath@...<mailto:blindmath@...>> wrote:

Dear all,

I am Bhavya Shah, a totally blind 16-year-old student from
Mumbai, India. Having just completed my tenth grade with the
same Mathematics and Science syllabus as my sighted peers in a
mainstream school, I intend to take up the Science stream
according to the Indian education system for Classes 11 and 12
with the subject combination of
Physics+Chemistry+Mathematics, and probably take up something
the lines of Computer Science for my undergraduate studies
after that (although I shouldn’t overly worry about about
finalizing that for now, I suppose). Additionally, I shall be
enrolling into coaching for a very competitive pan-India
engineering entrance examination over the next two years where
I will be delving into particularly advanced topics in to the
three afore-mentioned subjects.

Till Class 10, I managed an overwhelming chunk of Math either
orally or mentally, and from what I have been informed, have
dealt with relatively very simple organic structures, general
numericals and chemical equations which I have been handling
mostly via plain

It has become increasingly clear to me that this makeshift
method will be extremely inefficient and consequently
infeasible for the kind of syllabus I am transitioning to.
Hence, I am looking for different techniques, tools or methods
of typing Math and Science that will allow me to be as rapid a
Math&Science typist as I am of the English language (at its
peak, my fingers have achieved about
WPM) so that I can cope with the daily rigor this coaching demands.
I need to be able to type mathematical and scientific content
accurately and swiftly not necessarily such that it is visually
readable by a sighted professor but more so for my own
reference, understanding and purposes of review and revision.

So far, I am versed only with two options – ASCII Math, where I
would just type Math and Science using standard symbols present
on any keyboard such as /, *, ^ and so on to denote different
things (perhaps
(x+2)/x-1)) in chiefly plain text, or type things in LaTeX
using MathType ($\frac{x+2}{x-1}$) and employ Math Player and
NVDA to read it. From my basic understanding of this and
limited past experience with each of these methods, the former
sounds much faster and more efficient to me, but I am open to
evidence and experiences suggesting otherwise. There are
various other Math typing tools I have heard about over the
years such as Infty Reader and Lean Math, but have never
adequately researched them let alone
used them to any extent.

Any information or instructional material on these and other
potential alternatives you would recommend would be of great
help too.

I would truly appreciate any assistance on different strategies
you may have used to math your sighted counterparts’ speed in
terms of writing and solving mathematical and scientific
material, questions and problem sets.


Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

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