its not just for email programs, i did not test any email programs!
because i use gmail interface, but i experience this program in long
links in firefox, no matter in gmail or other websites.

On 5/4/18, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
Are you saying the problem happens with all programs that use browse mode or
are you using Outlook? I don't know a solution. If you are using Outlook,
then I'd suggest trying another e-mail program if the problem is confined to
Outlook. If you can read e-mail as plain text and you don't need to read it
as HTML for most or all e-mail, you can try reading mail as plain text if
you want to use Outlook.

If you aren't using Outlook and this is mainly an e-mail problem, you can
try reading mail as plain text in whatever program you are using.
Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: zahra
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2018 10:48 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io

hi gene.
i have this problem too!
distinguish if it is one link in several links or they are several
as you know i use firefox, when i had jaws, jaws announced long links
in only one line, so i did not have this problem.
i also set
Maximum number of characters on one line 200
as you suggested me in the previous questions, but unfortunately it
only works for me in usual text not in the links!
what should i do to nvda behaves like jaws in this regard?

On 5/4/18, Gene <gsasner@ripco.com> wrote:
evidently

This sounds like just one more problem related to Outlook, which is the
subject of far more messages I see describing problems than any other
popular Windows e-mail program among blind people.

It may be that the NVDA developers, if theis is a general problem, will
address it. Unless you need Outlook for some reason, it would be a good
idea to try firefox or Windows Live Mail.

Gene
----- Original Message -----

From: Louis Maher
Sent: Friday, May 04, 2018 10:16 AM
To: NVDA Discussion List (nvda@nvda.groups.io)

Hello,

difficult, especially in e-mails. The links span several lines, and are
difficult to arrow past. Also, some of the text is either at the
beginning
or end of these long links and are difficult to separate from the long
links. I am using Outlook 2016.

JAWS seems to be able to confine the links to one line; also, JAWS seems
to
be able to eliminate reading blank lines when there are several blank
lines
between paragraphs.

Are there any NVDA settings which can confine the links to one line and
eliminate reading multiple blank lines in Outlook 2016?

Thanks.

Regards
Louis Maher
Phone: 713-444-7838
E-mail ljmaher03@outlook.com

-----Original Message-----
From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces@nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Brandon Keith
Biggs via BlindMath
Sent: Friday, May 4, 2018 4:00 AM
To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics
<blindmath@nfbnet.org>
Cc: Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Typing Math and Science Quickly and
Understandably

Hello,

That article was very good thank you!

I would like to get an overview of how these different tools for
producing
math output work. Here is what I understand so far, please correct me
where
I'm wrong:

Every single method of producing inclusive math documents requires the
LaTeX
[syntax.](

The only difference is in the editor and compiler.

There are four ways of producing math content on the computer:

F1. (note I couldn't install the 30 day trial to test this out as the
accept
license screen was not accessible) Using Microsoft Word or the editor
with
[Mathtype.](
This allows you to have a large symbol list to choose from rather than
needing to type LaTeX, although you can type LaTeX if you wish. This has
more immediate feedback as users are able to read their equations in
MathML
instantly rather than waiting to compile. This allows people to edit math
in
Word which is generally a familiar environment. The downside is the
program
costs around $50 a year and you don't get the powerful abilities such as using BibTX, for writing papers. For math though, this works just fine. So pros are familiar environment in Word, WYSIWYG symbol list and editing, and access to the tools word has, such as spellcheck. Cons are the cost, lack of external tools such as BibTX, and the need for two proprietary applications. 2. Using [pandoc]( https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpandoc.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb0ec1aaa8a3447a3c17308d5b19e30fb%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636610215333873395&sdata=HJAQJf7m%2BmPlkNayTPwtyyR1z9JH6WKe7AkQIQ%2Bcxcs%3D&reserved=0) to compile either pure LaTeX or Markdown combined with LaTeX. Pros are the vast number of formats one can export to, the ability to type in both LaTeX and Markdown, completely open source, and access to tools such as BibTX. The cons are the need for one to use the command line, the requirement to type LaTeX math, and the need for one to understand how text editors and file types work. 3. Using [RMarkdown]( https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Frmarkdown.rstudio.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb0ec1aaa8a3447a3c17308d5b19e30fb%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636610215333873395&sdata=hxNa6p%2F0hZZtm11eRL7OJx0w%2BOg0nQLGSY5O4Ur%2B9tk%3D&reserved=0) Is basically for programmers to insert output from programs (such as python or R scripts) into a document. That way you don't need to insert screenshots or type the output of the program every time you compile. Other than that it is pandoc. Pros are the ability to call code from your Markdown file, massive number of output file formats, completely open source, and the ability to use tools such as BibTX. Cons are that one needs to use Markdown, the required use of the command line, required use of LaTeX math, and the need to understand editors and file types. 4. Using [MiKTeX]( https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmiktex.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb0ec1aaa8a3447a3c17308d5b19e30fb%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636610215333873395&sdata=WGU1%2FjVwaeazi1k%2FXMx0apWAJVHqRfNEz22bD0Kb41I%3D&reserved=0) with either a text editor or an IDE like [TEXnicCenter.]( https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.texniccenter.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb0ec1aaa8a3447a3c17308d5b19e30fb%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636610215333873395&sdata=kdVMzPSILszjz0SrIcIkCj48hXInScKcrL6HOMxcDP8%3D&reserved=0) Pros are that everything is integrated so no knowledge of the command line is needed, ability to export in a wide range of formats, and ability to use tools like BibTX. Cons are the configuration options if one wishes to do anything other than the default, the need to type in pure LaTeX, and exclusive to Windows (although there are text editors and IDEs other than TeXnicCenter that can be used on other operating systems). From what I have generally seen, Word is preferred by new users or users who like to use word, pandoc is preferred by users who are intermediate or above and who are not afraid of the command line, RMarkdown is used by programmers and data annalists who run code, and TeXnicCenter is used by people who want a simple plug and play tool for conversion between LaTeX and other formats. They each have their different affordances and should be used accordingly. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbrandonkeithbiggs.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb0ec1aaa8a3447a3c17308d5b19e30fb%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636610215333873395&sdata=ec1B3YlMqkt0xuFNrcj9QMnQmUUjaX%2BWpRuqA74U%2F8E%3D&reserved=0> On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 4:09 PM, Godfrey, Jonathan via BlindMath < blindmath@nfbnet.org> wrote: Hi Brandon, Take out all the backslashes in the example you sent through that aren't part of a mathematical expression. White space does all that is needed for line breaks, indenting etc. in markdown documents. You can't change the cumbersome nature of the LaTeX content for equations, but I suggest using *x* instead of the more common$x$within paragraphs because the font is so similar that it doesn't matter to the sighted audience but the conversion to italics from the stars is not spoken by a screen reader while the conversion to math mode from use of dollars is announced. This suggestion does break the rules for semantic correctness, but the distraction that is caused by the screen reader telling me x was math content can often detract from the overall reading experience of the final document especially in sentences where there are plenty of elements using simple mathematical notation. (You can't do this for super or subscripts so easily, or if the element needs a {} construct for example. One of the major pluses for encouraging my colleagues and anyone else preparing material that might be read by a blind person is that the author does not have to think about accessibility during document preparation. The access is built in so often because markdown forces an author to at least know they didn't add an alt tag for a graphic because they left some brackets empty. They often don't know what they've done (positive or negative) in reality so occasionally, some helpful reminders are required. <smiles> Markdown won't stop people choosing daft text for hyperlinks such as "here" but that's a societal issue not a mathematical one. Compare the simplicity of markdown to the pain to get an alt tag added to a graphic inserted into a LaTeX document. Yes it is possible, but it requires some additional work by the author if the document is to be born accessible or some post hoc editing by a human to build in that access. I can do the former, but as a blind person the latter option is annoying in HTML and impossible if the output file is in pdf. As it happens, I did write up some starting suggestions for markdown documents which are tailored to people using the R variant of markdown. Head to https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fr-re sources.massey.ac.nz%2FRmarkdown%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb0ec1aaa8a3447a3 c17308d5b19e30fb%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63661021 5333873395&sdata=QQh72p%2Ba6PrSSD3lwvRPIiF8FeQz%2BkqUUQzpV118Aac%3D&re served=0 HTH Jonathan -----Original Message----- From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces@nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Brandon Keith Biggs via BlindMath Sent: Friday, 4 May 2018 10:24 a.m. To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics < blindmath@nfbnet.org> Cc: Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonkeithbiggs@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Typing Math and Science Quickly and Understandably Hello Jonathan, Do you have something that explains the least cumbersome syntax for Markdown / LaTeX? Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fbran donkeithbiggs.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb0ec1aaa8a3447a3c17308d5b19e30f b%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636610215333873395&sdat a=ec1B3YlMqkt0xuFNrcj9QMnQmUUjaX%2BWpRuqA74U%2F8E%3D&reserved=0> On Thu, May 3, 2018 at 2:11 PM, Godfrey, Jonathan via BlindMath < blindmath@nfbnet.org> wrote: Hello, You are correct that use of LaTeX within a markdown document leads to the same outcome as the workflow you have used in MS Word with MathType. I don't think you should suddenly change workflow for improved access to the mathematical content. There are other reasons why you should get use of pandoc into your toolbox though. I do think Brandon's example is more cumbersome than it needed to be. I use markdown almost daily, and I only ever put a \ to get mathematical content. Forever listening to backslash from any screen reader is annoying, slows me down, and often presents a distraction. This was a leading reason for reducing my use of full-blown LaTeX. I would urge you to make use of the LEAN editor mentioned in this thread to enhance your workflow. The feature of LEAN I use most is the addition of tags to the math content so that you do not need to go backwards and forwards into LaTeX mode to read the content, and you don't have to use the specific combination of tools (screen reader + math player). LEAN offers an alternative and I am not suggesting it as a replacement. Having options is power, because it puts you in control. I do think you need to enhance what you do a little to get the best of what you have now before you embark on all manner of options. I would also suggest to you that the accuracy aspect of your criticism of LaTeX (while true) is also true for practically every tool you will use, and is also true for the scientific content you will be working with. I think your initial message to this thread said you were considering a computer science major; the programming languages you use will have limited flexibility to deal with the human inaccuracies that even the best among us is prone to create. For me, it is the ability to find and correct these inaccuracies that tells me how truly accessible a solution is for me. Markdown is the solution that works best for me today; it is not the only solution I use. My final point is about use of a personal system. I know plenty of blind people who have little shorthand things we write. The problem is that they are individual and can't be shared. The most likely person you will want to share your work with is your future-self. Will you recall the shorthand you use today in ten years' time? Cheers, Jonathan -----Original Message----- From: BlindMath <blindmath-bounces@nfbnet.org> On Behalf Of Bhavya shah via BlindMath Sent: Friday, 4 May 2018 8:05 a.m. To: Blind Math list for those interested in mathematics < blindmath@nfbnet.org> Cc: Bhavya shah <bhavya.shah125@gmail.com> Subject: Re: [BlindMath] Typing Math and Science Quickly and Understandably Hi Brandon, In essence, this method is very similar to how I used to use LaTeX of MathType to generate Math ML content that was visually readible and screen reader firnedly with the help of NVDA and Math Player. However, my only two concerns are that using LaTeX or any other standardized Math code to type would almost invariably mean (1) slightly longer and stricter syntax that would need to be mandatorily followed, and (2) there are several reasons, some of which include lack of customization in pronunciation and excessive pausing, why I found reading Math ML with the help of Math Player and NVDA somewhat cumbersome in my past experiences. If I come to think of it, it is quite certain that at some point in time, either for typing my own Math&Science or for reading my transcribed course material, I will need to deal with Math ML using Math Player and NVDA, so in a day at most, I will be retrying Math ML and sharing some of the more significant concerns and issues I have with interacting with Math ML. Kindly let me know if my present understanding of the method you described that this is just Pandoc instead of MathType and commandline instead of Word for using LaTeX to generate Math ML content is fundamentally incorrect. Thanks. On 5/3/18, Brandon Keith Biggs via BlindMath <blindmath@nfbnet.org> wrote: Hello, Markdown with LaTeX is perfect for you. Here is an example that Lukasz (from this list wrote): ## Parametric Forms *transcriber: system of two equations, each one has an extra information after comma* \$x = t^2 -2t$,$dx = 2t-2$\$y= t+1$, minimum at$t=1$\ *transcriber: end of the system* For window: \$t$from$[-2,4]$,$t$step$= 0.1$\$x$from$[-1,10]$\$y$from$[-1,5]$# something easier$3x + y = 10$\$9 * 5 = 45$\ Fractions \$\frac{1}{2} + \frac{1}{2} = 1$This converts perfectly to MathML using pandoc: https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2F pandoc.org%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb0ec1aaa8a3447a3c17308d5b19e30fb%7 C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C636610215333873395&sda ta=HJAQJf7m%2BmPlkNayTPwtyyR1z9JH6WKe7AkQIQ%2Bcxcs%3D&reserved=0 You install pandoc, open a command line where you have the math content and type: pandoc my_math_file.md --mathml -s -o my_html_output_file.html You can give your professor the html file and they can read it in print just fine. If you have a Braille display, the MathML shows up just fine and it is also read by the screen reader. NVDA requires Math player (see the user guide under reading math content for more info). Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs <https://nam02.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2F brandonkeithbiggs.com%2F&data=02%7C01%7C%7Cb0ec1aaa8a3447a3c17308d 5b19e30fb%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C63661021533 3873395&sdata=ec1B3YlMqkt0xuFNrcj9QMnQmUUjaX%2BWpRuqA74U%2F8E%3D&r eserved=0> On Wed, May 2, 2018 at 11:00 AM, Sean Tikkun via BlindMath < blindmath@nfbnet.org> wrote: Bhavya Shah, I am assembling a team to generate 3D models to assist in learning. The team leaders are a former math teacher fluent in Braille (me) and a Fabrication lab director that teaches Biological and Chemical Sciences at the University level. If you have access to 3D printing I would love to know what you may need. Files are easy to send. If not, perhaps there is a fabrication lab at a university in Mumbai that would be interested in some collaboration? Feel free to reach out. stikkun@nccu.edu. Sean Tikkun Apple Distinguished Educator class of 2007 On May 01, 2018, at 08:51 PM, Sabra Ewing via BlindMath < blindmath@nfbnet.org> wrote: I typed most of my math using the first method. You might be able to type more quickly if you had a braille keyboard. Also note that you can use parentheses and brackets. The Pearce in equation editor can produce math in a visual format. It is free. The braille note touch can do this as well although it is very expensive. I would definitely say to use a keyboard. Do not type on your phone as I am doing now because it is much slower. Another thing you can do is use copy and paste. You do not have to type everything from scratch. You can copy previous steps to your clipboard, paste them, and then modify them to create your future steps. Like for example, you might write a chemical equation that is not balanced. Paste this equation underneath it so you have two copies of the same equation. Then, take the first step toward balancing that equation and make those changes to your second copy. Now you have your equation and underneath it, you have the modified version with step one completed, so copied the version with step one completed to your clipboard and paste it underneath. Now you have the original equation, and you have two copies of step one. Modified the second copy of step one based on what you plan to do in step two. Continue this method until you have finished the problem. With a braille keyboard, you should be able to type as fast as someone can speak and even faster. If you cannot or a braille keyboard is not an option, you can record what is being said with a phone or other recording device and you can then go back over it. Another thing you can do is request things in electronic format. Mini American professors do not know how to create accessible math when it is really very easy as you described. You do not have to know any markup languages. You can create accessible math just by using your computer keyboard, and in many cases, if you are a computer science student, your math is in the perfect format to just paste right over into your ide. Maybe Indian professors would be better at creating accessible. If not, you might be able to find someone who can do it. This will be especially easy if you can find some funding. I was not lucky in this regard because other than professors, I never found a dedicated person who knew how to produce accessible math. I finally got to a position where I could no longer receive accessible math because I moved on to a four-year university where the professors did not know how to produce it. It is very ironic that when I started out at a two year university, the professors did know how to produce it. I approach programmers, professors, deans, and department head. No one actually knew how including the programmers who produce accessible math every day. I finally had to end up listening to my math on recordings and writing everything down. It was very difficult. If you want to get math in braille, there is software that can do it called Duxberry. Ironically, my university actually had this software, but no one knew how to use it including the people who worked at disability services. Getting it for yourself will not be helpful. If you get this software, you will need someone who can modify the equations for you. If your professor has files that were generated from a markup language, you could try asking for those source files. Even if you do not know the markup language, math is written very similarly when you are programming computers, so you could probably pick up how to read it. Unfortunately, my professors used PDFs that they got from other sources or pictures of hand written documents so I could not do this. People will try to tell you that Matt cannot be produced excessively on the computer. This simply is not true. Every mathematical formula, function, and number known to humankind can be programmed into a computer using a text based programming language. Also, many of these functions and formulas can be put into XL. If you can put these formulas into XL, then you can produce them accessibly in a word document. If someone is trying to tell you that they can't, then just tell them to put it in a spreadsheet, press F2 on the cells, and read the formulas that way. XL is very good because you can use it to organize data, you can use it as a calculator, and you can use it to create tables and graphs. You can put these documents in your dropbox and you can get the pictures of the graphs. You can then import these pictures into the voice app on your phone and you can listen to them. If you are going to listen to pie charts, to make it easier on yourself to read, use the 3-D exploding pie charts. This may sound counterintuitive, but when you listen to them, there is a bit more separation between each piece. I don't know how you would get training to listen to grass. I just automatically was born knowing how to do it. No one ever taught me. I could always listen to graphs very easily and I could never read tactile graphics. There is also a program called math tracks where you can create audio graphs by entering in equations.However, it is really best to have both the equation and the data because what if you created a graph using any equation, and you need to make some changes to the data? Well, you don't have the data, so what are you going to do? You could probably generate the data from the equation in some cases, but that will take forever. I like to listen to a graph and have the spreadsheet in front of me at the same time. There is also a blind chemist named Dr. sapalo. I'm not sure how to spell his name. I have his card somewhere but I just have to find it. I really wish people would start using those barcode Cards where I can scan the contact information into my phone, but I only know one person who uses those. Anyways, You may want to get in touch with him. He has all of these probes. They do all different things. They connect to a computer and they can measure chemical reactions and make graphs and do all this stuff depending on what probe you use. For example, you could use one probe to graph the color changes that occur during an experiment. You could use another probe to track temperature changes like ice melting. I don't really do chemistry, but if I did, I imagine I would want this thing, but I can't remember what it is called. But he is actually a chemistry professor at a university. He is totally blind and he teaches classes and runs labs and does all sorts of things. There are plenty of blind computer scientists, but he struck my interest in particular because I have not heard of mini blind chemists. He also had some good advice for 3-D printing that would work in the United States, but I am not sure if it would work in India. If possible though, you may want to get some 3-D models printed. Another thing is that you want to stay consistent. You want to make sure that you are doing things in the classroom the same way you will do them during testing. In my chemistry class, I did not have access to a lot of 3-D models, but for testing purposes, they made me a 3-D model. This really was not fair because it was made out of a lot of cups and straws. I did not know what it was, and it is not fair to use models for testing purposes that you did not use in the classroom or to use a different method for testing purposes that you did not use in the classroom because this will skew the results. If you use certain accommodations in the classroom, insist on the same accommodations for testing. Sabra Ewing On May 1, 2018, at 5:22 PM, Bhavya shah via BlindMath < blindmath@nfbnet.org> wrote: Dear all, I am Bhavya Shah, a totally blind 16-year-old student from Mumbai, India. Having just completed my tenth grade with the same Mathematics and Science syllabus as my sighted peers in a mainstream school, I intend to take up the Science stream according to the Indian education system for Classes 11 and 12 with the subject combination of Physics+Chemistry+Mathematics, and probably take up something Physics+Chemistry+along the lines of Computer Science for my undergraduate studies after that (although I shouldn’t overly worry about about finalizing that for now, I suppose). Additionally, I shall be enrolling into coaching for a very competitive pan-India engineering entrance examination over the next two years where I will be delving into particularly advanced topics in to the three afore-mentioned subjects. Till Class 10, I managed an overwhelming chunk of Math either orally or mentally, and from what I have been informed, have dealt with relatively very simple organic structures, general numericals and chemical equations which I have been handling mostly via plain text. It has become increasingly clear to me that this makeshift method will be extremely inefficient and consequently infeasible for the kind of syllabus I am transitioning to. Hence, I am looking for different techniques, tools or methods of typing Math and Science that will allow me to be as rapid a Math&Science typist as I am of the English language (at its peak, my fingers have achieved about 100 WPM) so that I can cope with the daily rigor this coaching demands. I need to be able to type mathematical and scientific content accurately and swiftly not necessarily such that it is visually readable by a sighted professor but more so for my own reference, understanding and purposes of review and revision. So far, I am versed only with two options – ASCII Math, where I would just type Math and Science using standard symbols present on any keyboard such as /, *, ^ and so on to denote different things (perhaps (x+2)/x-1)) in chiefly plain text, or type things in LaTeX using MathType ($\frac{x+2}{x-1}\$) and employ Math Player and NVDA to
read it. From my basic understanding of this and limited past
experience with each of these methods, the former sounds much
faster and more efficient to me, but I am open to evidence and
experiences suggesting otherwise. There are various other Math
typing tools I have heard about over the years such as Infty
let alone
used them to any extent.
Any information or instructional material on these and other
potential alternatives you would recommend would be of great help
too.

I would truly appreciate any assistance on different strategies
you may have used to math your sighted counterparts’ speed in
terms of writing and solving mathematical and scientific
material, questions and problem sets.

Thanks.

--
Best Regards
Bhavya Shah

Blogger at Hiking Across Horizons:
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--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali

--
By God,
were I given all the seven heavens
with all they contain
in order that
I may disobey God
by depriving an ant
from the husk of a grain of barley,
I would not do it.
imam ali

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