Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


 

Hi,

Microsoft cannot give up desktop interface for two reasons:

  1. Enterprise customers: there is a highly specialized version of Windows 10 Enterprise (which costs a lot) that does not use Microsoft Edge in many places. This is also the case for Windows Server Desktop Experience installations (for Server 2016 and Server 2019). These releases are provided to enterprise customers in order to make it more suitable for running mission critical software that should run well.
  2. Familiarity and uproar: Microsoft doesn’t want to repeat the same mistake from 2012 when visible Start button was removed. In fact, in recent Windows Insider Preview builds (Redstone 5), a tool tip was added to Start button.

 

As for Edge becoming the gateway to app interfaces: not exactly, I think. Although Edge could serve as an app interface container, support for this will ultimately come from apps themselves, hence ability to turn off Sets in Insider Preview builds (and let me repeat: Sets isn’t part of Version 1803 at all). Certain apps are known for not supporting Sets, and even some NVDA user interface windows does not work with this.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 3:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with the conventional Windows Desktop interface?

 

The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the web, but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar. Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in Windows.

 

So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to unload/dismiss open programs/sites/projects.

 

Is that what the future holds for Windows users?

 

Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the conventional Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

 

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

Hi Roger and others,

I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)…

The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development. Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

 

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you’ll be able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

 

When you run an app with Sets on, you’ll see (or feel) several new screen controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown, and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version 1709).

 

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T to open a new “tab”. This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

 

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided that you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press Alt+F4.

 

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you’re using a web browser that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add the Windows key to the mix.

 

But that’s not all Sets can do and change:

 

  • In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
  • When you pres Alt+Tab, you’ll be able to cycle through Edge tabs and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps. You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
  • You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook, Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

 

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:

 

  • Tabbed File Explorer: you’ll be able to view multiple folders and drives in one sitting.
  • Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of Edge tabs with research data.
  • Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
  • Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python Console: you’ll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA’s own Python Console and the other one could be an app you’re actively testing.

 

Cheers,

Joseph

 

 

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and how do I find this and turn it on?  Also, why would I need it on? Does it help with screen reader accessibility? 

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:

That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough to matter.  A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted users.  and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't have any of those problems.  Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may not be on by default.  As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

 

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough blind users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10.  Even if the problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

 

I'll get it when I get a new computer.  I won't upgrade a machine that is working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

 

Gene

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM

Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

 

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep on
fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I have
actually given  up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft can simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7. They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into the
keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful. Fine have new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype have
been let loose on the innards of Windows!
 Hides behind sofa.  Brian

bglists@...
Sent via blueyonder.
Please address personal E-mail to:-
briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name field.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


> Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically if Win
> 10 is detected?  New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
> addons
> for their screen reader.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
> Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> Hi,
>
> I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem to
> make much difference.
>
> I must play a bit more.
>
> All the best
>
> Steve
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
> list account via Groups.Io
> Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
> I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the  version of win 10
> essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
> If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try to
> isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
> Brian
>
> bglists@...
> Sent via blueyonder.
> Please address personal E-mail to:-
> briang1@..., putting 'Brian Gaff'
> in the display name field.
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...>
> To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>
>
>> Hi Jacob,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have three machines here, all on 1803.  None of them work at all
>> well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
>> unusable, as is Outlook.
>>
>>
>>
>> At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well.  But I don't know why
>> NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jacob
>> Kruger
>> Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
>> To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
>> Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning -
>> it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
>> 1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
>> hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a solid
>> state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react a bit
>> more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in file
>> explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows 10
>> 1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.
>>
>>
>>
>> Stay well
>>
>>
>>
>> Jacob Kruger
>> Blind Biker
>> Skype: BlindZA
>> "Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."
>>
>> On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>>
>>
>> I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.
>>
>>
>>
>> It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be reading.
>> For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me now.
>>
>>
>>
>> JAWS is reading lists quite happily.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any thoughts?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>>
>>
>> All the best
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Computer Room Services
>>
>> 77 Exeter Close
>>
>> Stevenage
>>
>> Hertfordshire
>>
>> SG1 4PW
>>
>> Tel: +44(0)1438-742286
>>
>> Mob: +44(0)7956-334938
>>
>> Fax: +44(0)1438-759589
>>
>> Email:  <mailto:steve@...> steve@...
>>
>> Web:  <http://www.comproom.co.uk/> http://www.comproom.co.uk
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>



 

 

Join nvda@nvda.groups.io to automatically receive all group messages.