Re: Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Steve Nutt
 

Hi Joseph,

Since this thread got a little bit hijacked by Linnux, did you get my
message to say that doing the importUIAHandler thing as you directed cured
my Explorer issues?

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Joseph Lee
Sent: 22 May 2018 16:28
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi all,
A few things:
1. Vocalizer: depends on what Nuance would say regarding this.
2. Linux accessibility: technically, this depends on distributions, their
age, and how well they handle accessibility calls. Linux does have
accessibility API.
3. Security: it may appear to be more secure due to perceived smaller market
share. However, as Spector and Meltdown demonstrates, Linux is prone to
security bugs as well, especially if hardware security is involved. Although
Linus Torvalds, the creator of Linux kernel was quoted as saying that
security bugs are bugs, Linux kernel developers and distribution vendors
(such as Canonical, the maker of Ubuntu distribution) takes security
seriously.
4. Market share: on the desktop front, Linux's market share is low. On
mobile, server and IoT (internet of things) front, Linux dominates. Android
is a leader in smartphone ecosystem at the moment, and that is powered by
Linux kernel. Many web servers and other cloud data centers use servers
powered by Linux. Internet of Things devices, firmware for many routers and
so on are built on top of Linux. The thing is, some of them are using
outdated Linux kernel versions, which opens up security issues if not tuned
and updated correctly.
5. You can run command-line Linux distributions on Windows: this is powered
by Windows Subsystem for Linux. At the moment there were reports of limited
success with GUI programs.
For more info on Linux, I recommend joining a list such as those for Orca,
Linux Users Groups and so on.
Cheers,
Joseph

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Angela Delicata
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 8:10 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Is it also possible to install Vocalizer voices on Linux?

Thank you for any possible reply, this OS has always  aroused  my curiousity
and I wish I could learn one day.



Il 22/05/2018 16:58, Ervin, Glenn ha scritto:
It is called Voxin, and it is at:
https://voxin.oralux.net/
I can give you the terminal commands to get it installed, but like
other
settings, you will have to reinstall it if you are running from a live DVD,
but if you install it on USB with a persistence file, it will stay.
Eventually you will probably put Linux on an old computer or duel-boot
it
with your Windows.
If you download the i386 version, Ubuntu will run well on old machines.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Steve
Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:51 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Final question then, where do you get Eloquence for it please? I know
you
have to buy it, and I'm happy to do it, but I really don't like ESpeak.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin,
Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:50
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Steve,
Yes it does, and there is a lot of free software available for Linux
as
well.
Once Orca starts, it will bring up Orca preferences and you will want
to
tab through the settings for speed and voices.
I always go to the keyboard tab and turn off the speaking of modifier
keys
and I think the other I turn off is navigation keys, because I don't like
hearing when I press those keys.
Don't change the voice from Default in the voice page without
installing a
new speech engine first.
If you burn it to DVD, the changes won't survive a reboot.
If you burn it to USB and make a persistence file, it will keep your
changes.
It has a terminal that is sort of like working in DOS.
That is how I usually install packages and get updates.
Glenn

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Steve
Nutt
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 9:41 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi Glenn,

Being very new to Linnux, forgive my seemingly silly question, but
does
that Iso download have Orca built into it then? Can I really press
Windows+S to get speech going on this distro? If so, it may tempt me to
Windows+try
it.

Thanks.

All the best

Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io <nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Ervin,
Glenn
Sent: 22 May 2018 15:21
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think that many who don't like Microsoft's changes will try and find
that they like Linux.
I often Use Ubuntu, and Orca is as good of a screenreader as NVDA. It
comes with eSpeak, but I purchased Eloquence for 5 dollars and it is all
free.
You can download an ISO image here:
https://ubuntu-mate.org/download/index.html
and you can burn it to DVD or USB and you will be surprised how much
it is
like Windows.
I'd say it is more like Windows than Windows is becoming.
It uses familiar keystrokes, like alt + tab and alt + F4, and the copy
&
paste, to mention a few.
It is more secure than Windows for sure.
It comes with Orca and you can start it by pressing Windows + S after
it
starts to bring up Orca.
I think we need more tools in our tool kit, and if nothing else, you
can
use it to retrieve your data if Windows won't boot.
After burning to disk, when it spins up and stops, it will beep, and
you
only need to press enter, which is for trying it without installing it.
Glenn


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io [mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io] On Behalf Of
Kenny
Sent: Tuesday, May 22, 2018 5:28 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Joseph, it really seems like Microsoft wishes to totally do away with
the
conventional Windows Desktop interface?



The future Windows OS will rely heavily on Edge to not only surf the
web,
but launch apps (Universal) and perform common end-user tasks (Word
Processing, watching videos, listening to music etc.) No more minimizing
Windows. No more switching from Desktop to Start button, to Tasks bar.
Microsoft Edge will be the parent node for everything that occurs in
Windows.



So you will no longer need to close Windows, but "Tabs" to
unload/dismiss
open programs/sites/projects.



Is that what the future holds for Windows users?



Looks like they learned from their mistake of removing the
conventional
Start button in the original Windows 10 release. They're taking a spoon fed
approach to getting rid of the Desktop interface this time LOL.

On 5/16/2018 1:04 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
Hi Roger and others,
I knew this day would come (smiles to himself)...
The following describes a Windows 10 feature under active development.
Thus, what I say below may change without notice, and feature availability
will depend on maturity of the feature in question:

A set is a grouping of apps into tabs designed to package related
activities together. Previously, if you wanted a tabbed app usage
experience, you had to use web browsers and certain apps that does support
tabs (Notepad++ is one of them). Sets changes this in a major way: you'll be
able to run apps inside Microsoft Edge tabs.

When you run an app with Sets on, you'll see (or feel) several new
screen
controls that invite you to open a new tab, a list of tabs will be shown,
and a button that offers to restore previously opened tabs. The actual app
content will be housed inside a Microsoft Edge container window, similar to
what happens now when you use certain apps with Windows My People (Version
1709).

While an app is running inside a Sets window, press Control+Windows+T
to
open a new "tab". This new tab window (from Microsoft Edge) consists of
typical new tab content, as well as an embedded Cortana search box that lets
you search for things such as another app to open. After searching for
things via this search box, press Enter to open an app or a file. The Edge
new tab content is replaced by app screen, and a new tab, representing the
just opened app, will be listed in tabs list.

To move between app tabs, press Control+Windows+Tab or
Control+Windows+Shift+Tab. To switch to a particular app tab (provided
Control+Windows+Shift+that
you know the app position), press Control+Windows+number row key. To close
an app, press Control+Windows+W, and to close everything in one go, press
Alt+F4.

You may have noticed a familiar pattern: if you're using a web browser
that supports tabbed browsing, the commands to switch between app tabs are
nothing more than switching between browser tabs, except that you would add
the Windows key to the mix.

But that's not all Sets can do and change:


* In Timeline (Task View in Version 1803 and later), Windows will
list previously opened set and offer to restore all app tabs in one go.
* When you pres Alt+Tab, you'll be able to cycle through Edge tabs
and other windows. This is because, in reality, app tabs are apps running
inside Edge container window, so will be treated as switching between apps.
You can change it so that Alt+Tab will let you cycle between app windows
instead, which means only the focused app in a set will be visible.
* You can ask Windows to open things you click from one app in
another window or a tab. For example, if you click a link in outlook,
Windows will either open the link in a new browser window or a new Edge tab.

There are practical consequences as a result of using Sets:


* Tabbed File Explorer: you'll be able to view multiple folders and
drives in one sitting.
* Writing papers and viewing research results: you can have an app
tabs set where you have Word or Libreoffice Writer open and a collection of
Edge tabs with research data.
* Updating currency conversion formula in Excel: you can have a
workbook open in Excel while using latest currency conversion results from
Calculator app and update your spreadsheet accordingly.
* Testing accessibility of an app while debugging it via Python
Console: you'll be able to open a set where one tab is NVDA's own Python
Console and the other one could be an app you're actively testing.

Cheers,
Joseph


From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io><mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io> On Behalf Of Roger Stewart
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 9:31 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Can you please explain what is meant by "the new feature of sets" and
how
do I find this and turn it on? Also, why would I need it on? Does it help
with screen reader accessibility?

Thanks.

Roger










On 5/16/2018 11:00 AM, Gene wrote:
That is only true if a lot of users, sighted users, get annoyed enough
to
matter. A lot of the changes that inconvenience blind users until they
learn how to use them may be intuitive and quickly understood by sighted
users. and, in the case of screen-reader problems, sighted people wouldn't
have any of those problems. Also, as in the new feature of sets, they may
not be on by default. As I recall what I read, sets is off by default.

But every time a new major update to Windows comes out, I see enough
blind
users have problems that I'm in no hurry to get Windows 10. Even if the
problems are temporary, such as screen-reader problems that are dealt with
not too long after the upgrade, Windows 10 has nothing I want that justifies
even relatively minor inconveniences time after time.

I'll get it when I get a new computer. I won't upgrade a machine that
is
working very well with an earlier version of Windows.

Gene
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian's Mail list account via
Groups.Io<mailto:bglists=blueyonder.co.uk@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 10:47 AM
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I think the one thing I'm really annoyed about is that Microsoft keep
on fiddling with things that used to work and making them not work. I
have actually given up on 10 as a working platform, unless Microsoft
can
simply
provide a system stable and just with security updates like windows 7.
They
are not doing themselves any good by bringing out new versions of
windows
every6 months or so in my view, they are going to make Windows 7 into
the keep hold of system just like XP if they are not more careful.
Fine have
new
features but do not change the whole concept and still call it windows 10.
that is just silly. That is my feeling after being exposed to their
messing
about. its as if the developers who used to regularly screw up Skype
have been let loose on the innards of Windows!
Hides behind sofa. Brian

bglists@blueyonder.co.uk<mailto:bglists@blueyonder.co.uk>
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Please address personal E-mail to:-
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----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Oh and isn't it time NVDA installed Win 10 essentials automagically
if
Win
10 is detected? New users shouldn't certainly have to go hunting for
addons for their screen reader.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Steve Nutt
Sent: 16 May 2018 15:43
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

Hi,

I just downloaded Win 10 essentials stable today, but it doesn't seem
to make much difference.

I must play a bit more.

All the best

Steve

-----Original Message-----
From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Brian's Mail
list account via Groups.Io
Sent: 16 May 2018 13:17
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803

I expect Joseph will be along soon to ask about the version of win
10 essentials you have, but have you tried the pre release master snap?
If that fails too then somebody in the development team needs to try
to isolate what makes some machines work and others not.
Brian

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----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt"
<steve@comproom.co.uk<mailto:steve@comproom.co.uk>>
To: <nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>>
Sent: Wednesday, May 16, 2018 12:31 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803


Hi Jacob,



I have three machines here, all on 1803. None of them work at all
well with NVDA in Windows 10, in fact, File Explorer is pretty much
unusable, as is Outlook.



At this point, I'm glad I have JAWS as well. But I don't know why
NVDA is so broken with 1803, more so than JAWS.



All the best


Steve

From: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
<nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>> On Behalf Of Jacob
Kruger
Sent: 16 May 2018 09:10
To: nvda@nvda.groups.io<mailto:nvda@nvda.groups.io>
Subject: Re: [nvda] Problems with NVDA and latest Windows 10 1803



Steve, this sounds almost like an iteration of what I was mentioning
- it seems to fluctuate/vary quite a bit on/off on my one windows 10
1803 machine, which is a lenovo laptop, whereas on my slightly lower
hardware specification desktop machine, that does however have a
solid state operating system drive in it, it actually seems to react
a bit more consistently, in terms of reading out list items, like in
file explorer, to me, and, this is with both of them running windows
10
1803 pro 64 bit, and, currently both running NVDA master snapshot.



Stay well



Jacob Kruger
Blind Biker
Skype: BlindZA
"Resistance is futile...but, acceptance is versatile..."

On 5/16/2018 10:03 AM, Steve Nutt wrote:

Hi,



I recently reported that Outlook message lists were not reading for me.



It is in fact worse than that, lists in general don't seem to be
reading.
For example, File Explorer in Windows 10 is completely silent for me
now.



JAWS is reading lists quite happily.



Any thoughts?



Thanks.



All the best



Steve



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