You are largely correct on this analysis, but at times, I must confess, you
have a way of stating what could be stated n a sentence or two in 10 thousand
words.
What you are saying in a nutshell is that you should always scope out
unfamiliar web pages and then when you know what is going on on such pages, use
your quick navigation, links lists and so on.
I do this all the time and it is more or less common sense. For
example, once you scope out a page and you know that the listen live link on a
web page is near the top and the word here as in 'click here' to listen' is the
clickable word, then it is much easier to use the links list and when you press
the letter h and hear the word here, to press enter on it to start
listening.
This message is long but people may find it useful. And it would be
nice if those who teach enough to be known in the field, would advocate that
teaching be changed as I describe.
I have maintained for almost as long as I've known about these completely
artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are not good to use on
unfamiliar pages. Now, you are giving excellent arguments why they
shouldn't be used on familiar pages.
In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the
page. I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode buffer,
but it is the page as we generally work with it and it and it is not a
completely artifically construct that goes outside of any unified
page-as-structure gestault, to use a fancy word meaning picture or mental
construction or framework.
It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on
instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in your
example. Just think how much more natural and directly working with the
page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you are at the top of
the page, then search for the word cart. Repeat the search if necessary
until you get to the cart. Then explain how to move through the
cart. I almost never use amazon so I don't recall the best ways.
And this is true on page after page. What about a newspaper site where
you want to find the editorial section on the home page. Instead of
using the links list, search for edito. Repeat if necessary.
What about a radio station site? If you want to listen, search for
listen. If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word
click. Using the links list and using first letter navigation to find
the word listen won't do any good if the link says click here to listen
live. Nor will using first letter navigation help when looking for the
word "live." You have to find the word click with first letter
navigation. It makes much more sense to search for words like listen and
live or click using my method. You will find the link every time because
all three words are in the link, just not necessarily in the limited and
arbitrary way this completely artificial structure imposes on looking for
them.
What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get
contact information or use a contact form. From the top of the page,
search for the word "contact." Again, what if the link says click here
to contact us." What if it says, to contact us, use this form,
where "this form" is the link. Best of luck finding it with the
links list. Using search, you will find the word contact and the link is
in the sentence. This also leads to micromemorization of pages.
Page x has something you switch to the headings list to find. Site Y has
something you look for using the buttons list. It's not a natural way to
work with web pages and you are reporting increasing dissatisfaction with how
sites label structures that are not how they appear.
As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the kindness
of strangers when navigating web pages.
I want to be very clear on the next point. I am not aedvocating not
using heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages. Nor
am I saying that the skip blocks of links shoudn't be used. Those uses
move you past generally used patterns on a page to get to where you
want. I'm advocating against using the links list in examples such as I
give above when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find something more
specific than the general beginning of text beyond a usually present structure
such as navigation links. And I'm advocating using search for finding
something in the links list on unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what
the link says as the first word in the link. I am also arguing that in
teaching, using the links list removes the user from the structure of the page
and should never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation
instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it. The mor3e the student
works with the web page, the better.
The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching web
page navigation has become unquestioned dogma. I did a tutorial years
ago on Internet use. It is the only one I know that tells users, don't
use the links list on unfamiliar pages. If you want to use it on
familiar pages, that's alright but I specifically tell them not to use the
links list when using the tutorial even if they already are familiar with
it.
The other tutorials I've seen teach it near the beginning of teaching
page navigation. It's far past time someone with enough influence in the
field that others will at least pay attention and think, make this case.
Gene
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] Amazon.com "Cart" page with JAWS &
NVDA
Rick,
Thanks.
I've figured some of this out but it is still insane. Being sighted, it
is making me crazy that there is a trend toward making objects look like other
objects that they are not. I cannot fathom why you would make a
button visually appear as a link. I've experienced the reverse,
too.
It does no one any good
on either side of the equation. I hate telling a client something like
"bring up the list of links" then use first letter navigation by 'D' to get to
that Delete link that is not, in actuality, a link. I came to the
conclusion using the elements lists and cycling through the various
elements.
I still find
it strange that the Delete (which is accompanied by the full name of the item)
button also shows up in the list of form fields. Of course, when I see
form field I think edit box, and perhaps that's my problem. I don't
think of "form field" as the generic term for "object that can be interacted
with on the page," and am starting to think that may be what it actually
means.
It doesn't help when
I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think NVDA" in rapid succession, either, when
it comes to terminology.
--
Brian - Windows
10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
A little
kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all
humankind.
~ Richard Dehmel