Re: "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Robin Frost

Hi Gene and all,
Personally I appreciate the depth Gene’s message featured as he didn’t assume skill level or familiarity of any users new or old who might be reading it as we have users of all types here. He also aptly demonstrated that there is often more than one way to accomplish a thing and it’s always good to know more than one way as you never when a given way won’t be the best fit for a use case or situation.Secondly I find as a user who always likes to at least attempt to keep learning new things that the more detail or description of a concept given the better. That way if I archive a message for later review I have as much information at my disposal to revisit whether that be through a saved message or the archives of the group.
Thanks again Gene for your insights.
From: Gene
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 12:03 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA
What if you have twenty or thirty web pages you use for listening to stations?  That is what I meant when I spoke of micromemorizing pages.  It appears to me that it takes the links list a little time to open.  Then you move by first letter navigation to what you want.  I am not convinced it's faster to any significant extent or easier than opening find, typing list or listen and finding the link that way without remembering that the wrsv site, for example,  uses the word click, and the Wbcw site does but most other sites use listen.  These are fictitious examples. 
Quite some time ago, Send Space changed it's download link to a button.  When it happened, it cause me no problem in the slightest.  I simply typed downl and found the button immediately. 
When I found that it is now a button, I started typing the letter b from the top of the page.  But when the change was made, I found the button as quickly as I had found the link previously.
Perhaps I wrote too long a message, others will have to decide.  I wanted to make clear what I meant, and I wanted to argue forcefully for it In hopes that maybe, if any possibly influential instructors read the message, they might start making the case to others who teach and maybe, stop the pernicious way this is taught.

----- Original Message -----
From: Ron Canazzi
Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 8:20 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

Hi Gene,


You are largely correct on this analysis, but at times, I must confess, you have a way of stating what could be stated n a sentence or two in 10 thousand words.


What you are saying in a nutshell is that you should always scope out unfamiliar web pages and then when you know what is going on on such pages, use your quick navigation, links lists and so on.


I do this all the time and it is more or less common sense.  For example, once you scope out a page and you know that the listen live link on a web page is near the top and the word here as in 'click here' to listen' is the clickable word, then it is much easier to use the links list and when you press the letter h and hear the word here, to press enter on it to start listening.


On 7/27/2018 1:02 AM, Gene wrote:
This message is long but people may find it useful.  And it would be nice if those who teach enough to be known in the field, would advocate that teaching be changed as I describe. 
I have maintained for almost as long as I've known about these completely artificial, screen-reader created constructs, that they are not good to use on unfamiliar pages.  Now, you are giving excellent arguments why they shouldn't be used on familiar pages. 
In my strong opinion, people are much better off using the page as the page.  I realize it is the page as presented in the browse mode buffer, but it is the page as we generally work with it and it and it is not a completely artifically construct that goes outside of any unified page-as-structure gestault, to use a fancy word meaning picture or mental construction or framework.
It removes the user from the interface and makes him/her reliant on instructions on how to do this or that thing, as you illustrate in your example.  Just think how much more natural and directly working with the page, as presented, it is to tell the student, make sure you are at the top of the page, then search for the word cart.  Repeat the search if necessary until you get to the cart.  Then explain how to move through the cart.  I almost never use amazon so I don't recall the best ways.  And this is true on page after page.  What about a newspaper site where you want to find the editorial section on the home page.  Instead of using the links list, search for edito.  Repeat if necessary. 
What about a radio station site?  If you want to listen, search for listen.  If you find nothing, search for the word live or the word click.  Using the links list and using first letter navigation to find the word listen won't do any good if the link says click here to listen live.  Nor will using first letter navigation help when looking for the word "live."  You have to find the word click with first letter navigation.  It makes much more sense to search for words like listen and live or click using my method.  You will find the link every time because all three words are in the link, just not necessarily in the limited and arbitrary way this completely artificial structure imposes on looking for them. 
What if you are on an unfamiliar site and all you want to do is get contact information or use a contact form.  From the top of the page, search for the word "contact."  Again, what if the link says click here to contact us."  What if it says, to contact us, use this form, where "this form" is the link.  Best of luck finding it with the links list.  Using search, you will find the word contact and the link is in the sentence.  This also leads to micromemorization of pages.  Page x has something you switch to the headings list to find.  Site Y has something you look for using the buttons list.  It's not a natural way to work with web pages and you are reporting increasing dissatisfaction with how sites label structures that are not how they appear.
As I say from time to time, blind people shouldn't rely on the kindness of strangers when navigating web pages. 
I want to be very clear on the next point.  I am not aedvocating not using heading movement to skip navigation links on unfamiliar pages.  Nor am I saying that the skip blocks of links shoudn't be used.  Those uses move you past generally used patterns on a page to get to where you want.  I'm advocating against using the links list in examples such as I give above when you are on unfamiliar pages and want to find something more specific than the general beginning of text beyond a usually present structure such as navigation links.  And I'm advocating using search for finding something in the links list on unfamiliar pages where you cannot assume what the link says as the first word in the link.  I am also arguing that in teaching, using the links list removes the user from the structure of the page and should never be used or taught until the end of web page navigation instruction, if the instructor wants to teach it.  The mor3e the student works with the web page, the better.
The links list, this, what I consider, very improper way of teaching web page navigation has become unquestioned dogma.  I did a tutorial years ago on Internet use.  It is the only one I know that tells users, don't use the links list on unfamiliar pages.  If you want to use it on familiar pages, that's alright but I specifically tell them not to use the links list when using the tutorial even if they already are familiar with it. 
The other tutorials I've seen teach it near the beginning of teaching page navigation.  It's far past time someone with enough influence in the field that others will at least pay attention and think, make this case.
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2018 10:05 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA

          Thanks.  I've figured some of this out but it is still insane.  Being sighted, it is making me crazy that there is a trend toward making objects look like other objects that they are not.   I cannot fathom why you would make a button visually appear as a link.  I've experienced the reverse, too.

           It does no one any good on either side of the equation.  I hate telling a client something like "bring up the list of links" then use first letter navigation by 'D' to get to that Delete link that is not, in actuality, a link.  I came to the conclusion using the elements lists and cycling through the various elements.

           I still find it strange that the Delete (which is accompanied by the full name of the item) button also shows up in the list of form fields.  Of course, when I see form field I think edit box, and perhaps that's my problem.  I don't think of "form field" as the generic term for "object that can be interacted with on the page," and am starting to think that may be what it actually means.

           It doesn't help when I'm trying to "think JAWS" and "think NVDA" in rapid succession, either, when it comes to terminology.

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel



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