Re: "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA


It may be that I don't understand how sighted people see web pages but it is certainly different than the way a blind person encounters it. 
I don't know if I'm making a mountain out of a molehill.  And I don't think your characterization is correct about my having a tendency to do so.
I fail to see why you are so defensive and hostile on this subject.  I'm making two or three main points and your messages support them even though you are at least to an extent, arguing against them.
The thread began with you explaining a difficulty you are having with increasing numbers of web sites where a structure appears visually as one thing and to the screen-reader as something else.  You discussed how you had problems using one of the screen-reader lists to move through the cart in part because a structure appears different visually than it appears to a screen-reader and you were using the links list so the structure was not seen. 
My point is that if you don't use the links list, but use the methods I discussed, the search command, or tabbing through the cart, you won't have the problem.  and you won't have it on other sites.  Your own message argues for what I am saying.
I explained my strong view that the links list shouldn’t' be used on unfamiliar pages.
I said it detracts from effective teaching because it uses completely artificial constructs and removes the user from the page.  And I said that it shouldn't be taught until the student has thoroughly mastered navigation using the web page itself.
To this, and to my concrete examples and very specific arguments, you wrote a quarrelsome, almost attack that maybe some day it will occur to me that there are other ways of doing things than mine.  That is completely beside the point and irrelevant.  I made a very good case for my views and why I think they are by far best practices.  Attacking me and accusing me of rigidity won't win the argument.  You haven't given any specific counterexamples or arguments against what I said except that different people are different.  That has nothing to do with best practices.  If you don't generalize about best practices and try to account for exceptions that don't represent the general, how can you teach anything? 
I've done a little teaching.  If the person had problems understanding or working in the way I think is the best practice to teach, I would use other methods. 
And I didn't prescribe or say that people have to use this or that method.  I discussed using the find command, move by headings, skip blocks of links commands, and move by button.  Hardly rigid.  I'm giving different ways of movement that one may use depending on circumstances and page layout and on how you want to work with the page.  I also said specifically that if you want to know a lot about what is on a page, you may want to read some or all of the page.
I discussed the mouse because you attacked me as being rigid and dictatorial.  I didn't do so as an attack, however,  And you don't have to apologize for anything.  But it is certainly the case that a sighted person may approach something In not necessarily the best manner for a blind person to learn because of thinking of things as perceived in the sighted way.  I didn't say you generally do this.  It doesn't appear to me that you do.  And I am not discounting the value of getting sighted help when useful or important.  But my point still stands.
But based on twenty years of Internet use, thinking about what works well and what doesn't, and observing the kinds of problems many blind people have using the Internet, I dispute the amount of emphasis you seem to place on use of the mouse to get a picture of the web page. 
If you are interested, I will discuss what I consider the most effective way to give blind people an understanding of the way a sighted person sees a web page layout as compared with a blind person, using browse mode which reformats the page.  
Your tone has been increasingly hostile and dismissive.  If you want to answer, I'll give you the last word.  I've pretty much said everything I have to say and you may have a response.  I think people pretty well have decided what they think of our differences so I won't keep arguing various points.
----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, July 27, 2018 3:44 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] "Cart" page with JAWS & NVDA


           No one is better at making a mountain out of a molehill than you are.

           You really need to consider "how you read," as it's clear to me that I am far from alone in my perception of your both your tone and the scope of your comments.

           As to my taking on "the sighted way" well, of course I do.  We are all the products of our sensory palettes.  I could no sooner pretend to understand what it is to be blind as a perceptual world than I could to pretend to understand what it is to be deaf, unable to taste or smell, or lacking touch or proprioception.  I am what I am, and I make no apology for that.  I also find your explanation of how you look at a webpage utterly alien to my own experience even when I'm looking at parts rather than the whole.  I tend to look at classes of objects because most webpages are presented arranged by such and, up until very recently, one could count on object types having very distinct visual presentations.  That's how most of them came to have their names, e.g, a button on screen looks like a button on a physical object (or at least it did until the recent flat look became all the rage, now it looks like a rectangle filled in by color and a label when it's done conventionally).  It is bad, bad, bad design to mask one object as though it were another.  It violates every rule in the book.

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    A little kindness from person to person is better than a vast love for all humankind.

           ~ Richard Dehmel



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