Re: academics and employment


Please read my message again.  You will see that I attributed no such motives to you nor did I say you said that JAWS crashed the first time.  What I objected to was a message in response to yours that said that your message should be passed along by everyone.  I then gave some reasons I think it shouldn't.  I then explicitly stated that I have no objection to the message being sent to the list as a part of discussion.  But I don't think it is suitable to be used to promote NVDA.  I don't believe that you were malicious or were against me or the group.  what I objected to was the pass it along widely request and I gave my reasons but I didn't object to your message being sent to or discussed on list.
As far as JAWS crashing, you said:
JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things.  I didn't object to the heavyweight description.  It may be much mor heavyweight, as you say.  I personally am not sure if that matters a lot on modern fast machines but I didn't object to that.  But saying it crashes over the simplist things can very easily be interpreted as that it crashes a lot since the simplist things may well be encountered very often.  I'm not saying that was your meaning, I'm saying that is a very easy way to interpret what you said.  And that was one of my reasons for objecting to the pass it along request because, while that is your experience, I don't know if it is generally true. 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 10:01 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment

Gene, firstly, I did not mean anything malicious toward the group or you. Secondly, my entire sentence about crashing was taken out of context. I did not mean to imply that JAWS crashed the first time I used it. I do not generalize on every system…


You are right! I am not saying you are wrong about JAWS, OK? JAWS lets you create custom labels and other things NVDA does not. I also agree with you on using JAWS on a VPN. I am not against you or the group on anything! Calm down! Yes, JAWS will let you create frames. Yes, JAWS will let you create graphics labels and other stuff.


This was nothing intended for the group to get upset about. I definitely didn’t mean anything in a bad way.





From: <> On Behalf Of Gene
Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 9:54 PM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment


I am not convinced that this discription of JAWS crashing all the time is accurate as a generalization.  It is one person's experience on how many computers, one, more than one?  You can't ever generalize performance from the report of one person.  If the report is based on JAWS being used on perhaps three or four different computers then, while still not generalizable, it has a bit of a very small sample.  But I don't believe in trying to build up NVDA's reputation  by circulating messages that criticize JAWS in this way.  I have no objection to the message being sent to the list as part of a discussion.  I object to advocating that it be widely circulated.


And those who do believe in this strategy might consider that those who want to build up JAWS or another product can find things in NVDA to criticize. 


Let's consider a few important shortcomings that are especially important in employment situations.


You can't change how structures are interpreted in NVDA, such as telling it to read something as a list when it isn't to see if it can work with that imposed structure better.  You can't create frames.  I once set up JAWS for someone using a VPN to read the exact lines on the screen necessary to log in.  I may have done other things as well to have JAWS read specific parts of the screen automatically or by issuing a command so the person could use the program she needed with proper control and without very excessive verbiage.  You can't do that with NVDA. Someone has to write a script.  Research It was discussed, when it came out, as being able to be tailored to do something like read a proprietary data base used at a job. 


Loyalty to NVDA is not productive if it stifles proper critiques of what needs improvement.  No one is served.



----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:27 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment


Great endorsement!  I love this one!  Everyone please pass this message along!












On 8/17/2018 7:30 PM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:



It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.


I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing’s frontend architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.


Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.


Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.


Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.


Mighty Mike


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