Re: academics and employment


When I used JAWS with Oracle SQL Developer yesterday and had IE open to watch a getting started video, after it was over and I pressed CTRL+W to close the tab, JAWS was still running, but acted like it was sitting there. I could press ALT+TAB, and it would speak that, but not where I was. I had to press INSERT+F4 and close JAWS out. When I fired up NVDA, it worked like a charm.


Maybe gratitude was not the right word to use in my original message. I meant that NVDA does a hell of a lot for us, even though there is always room for improvement. Therapists are often the one that preach an attitude of gratitude. I used my Employee Assistance Program to help with depression. That is how I learned about this stuff.




From: <> On Behalf Of erik burggraaf
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 6:49 AM
Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment


Well, as I reported before, my experience is that nvda is more stable in work environments than Jaws. an employer reported to me that they tested both on their systems, and Jaws refuse to run on the customer-facing machines. even considering all the factors that would have to be in play, I feel pretty confident saying that nvda is more stable than Jaws. I would even say, much more stable than Jaws. if that is a put-down of an extremely expensive, highly proprietary, and somewhat unstable workplace application, I make no apologies.   if they build a better product, I will consider using it and endorsing it.  if I go into a work environment, and I need something that nvda doesn't offer, and Jaws will work in that situation, I will use it. I won't complain, even though I personally find a Jaws unwieldy to use.



On August 17, 2018 10:54:18 PM "Gene" <gsasner@...> wrote:

I am not convinced that this discription of JAWS crashing all the time is accurate as a generalization.  It is one person's experience on how many computers, one, more than one?  You can't ever generalize performance from the report of one person.  If the report is based on JAWS being used on perhaps three or four different computers then, while still not generalizable, it has a bit of a very small sample.  But I don't believe in trying to build up NVDA's reputation  by circulating messages that criticize JAWS in this way.  I have no objection to the message being sent to the list as part of a discussion.  I object to advocating that it be widely circulated.


And those who do believe in this strategy might consider that those who want to build up JAWS or another product can find things in NVDA to criticize. 


Let's consider a few important shortcomings that are especially important in employment situations.


You can't change how structures are interpreted in NVDA, such as telling it to read something as a list when it isn't to see if it can work with that imposed structure better.  You can't create frames.  I once set up JAWS for someone using a VPN to read the exact lines on the screen necessary to log in.  I may have done other things as well to have JAWS read specific parts of the screen automatically or by issuing a command so the person could use the program she needed with proper control and without very excessive verbiage.  You can't do that with NVDA. Someone has to write a script.  Research It was discussed, when it came out, as being able to be tailored to do something like read a proprietary data base used at a job. 


Loyalty to NVDA is not productive if it stifles proper critiques of what needs improvement.  No one is served.



----- Original Message -----

Sent: Friday, August 17, 2018 8:27 PM

Subject: Re: [nvda] academics and employment


Great endorsement!  I love this one!  Everyone please pass this message along!












On 8/17/2018 7:30 PM, Walker, Michael E. (UMSL-Student) wrote:



It is Mike who was talking to you all earlier about copy and paste. I am now on my personal e-mail.


I want to clarify what was said about the copy and paste system on the web needing to be perfected, for NVDA to be adequate for college and employment. Let us take a moment to think about what NVDA does for us, because of the hundreds if not thousands of man hours of development put into this. I pulled down the source from GitHub, after talking with Joseph Lee, to gain an appreciation of what goes into building this thing. It is incredible. I work for the Boeing Company. That is right. It is the same company that builds all the airplanes and Defense, Space, and security systems. I use NVDA as my primary screen reader in Git BASH, and Visual Studio Code. NVDA is what helped me build the Angular template for Boeing’s frontend architecture reference implementation. I only ever turn on JAWS, if I am using something highly proprietary like Citrix.


Do I think NVDA could use some improvements that proprietary screen readers have? Absolutely, but we must also remember the imperfections of proprietary readers. NVDA is the best reader I have found that supports Notepad++ and SQL Server Management Studio where JAWS repeats the lines, when I down arrow. JAWS is also way more heavyweight, and crashes over the simplest things. I cannot remember the last time NVDA froze.


Overall, what we need is an attitude of gratitude. NVDA is plenty suited for education and employment, despite its imperfection and need for a bit of improvement. Let me close out by saying use Microsoft Narrator full-time for education and employment, or even Orca for Linux. They do not have half the shit NVDA does.


Thank you so much for taking the time to volunteer and develop NVDA. Keep up the great work! I will use NVDA until the day I die over JAWS.


Mighty Mike


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